Author Topic: Do 217  (Read 3974 times)

Offline skorpx1

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2013, 11:05:36 PM »

I fly it in LW, and utilizing it's rather unique performance characteristic allows me to survive the vast majority of my sorties in it.
Something that I would much more difficult to do doing the same in several other bombers, notably the B-25C or He 111.

I keep forgetting you and the other Euro guys usually fly at the time when theres no more than 100, maybe 150 people online.


Not too hard to keep away from the fly swatter if nobody's swinging.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 11:09:51 PM »
I keep forgetting you and the other Euro guys usually fly at the time when theres no more than 100, maybe 150 people online.


Not too hard to keep away from the fly swatter if nobody's swinging.


That's quite some assumption.

What time do we have now? ;)
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 11:11:22 PM »
I keep forgetting you and the other Euro guys usually fly at the time when theres no more than 100, maybe 150 people online.


Not too hard to keep away from the fly swatter if nobody's swinging.
That isn't what Lusche is saying.  He uses it for fast strikes on frontline bases in the face of opposition.  It climbs so much faster than most other bombers that it can get up, get in above the fighters and get out before it is intercepted.

I have used it thus during American hours too.

Sure, you're mostly toast if actually intercepted, but it is more useful than many claim it to be.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 11:23:31 PM »
Of the 217s in all variants, the most common were recon variants and maritime patrol variants.

They did not "make up a good portion" of the Luftwaffe bomber fleet, as their role in actual use as bombers was fairly small.

I'll copy and paste remarks I made on the subjects some time ago:

The E-1 had only 2000kg payloads (4400lbs, to round it off).

The E-2 brought this up to 4000kg (8800lb roughly). 2000kg-2500kg internally, the rest externally on shackles. The E-2 was equal parts anti-shipping and level bombing, so it's possible this 8000kg is a pair of very heavy glider bombs under the wings. Some navy patrol bombers carried 2x 1000kg bombs under the wings, so this would also account for the bomb load being split up internal/external.

The E-3 was a specific anti-shipping variant with extra armor.

The E-4 was a more of a bomber variant, and I'd say probably the best candidate for Aces High. However, it still was used against shipping and as maritime recon etc. As this was one of the few post-BOB bombers that could reach the UK and back, half the bomb bay (perhaps an entirely separate bomb bay, like on the Ju88?) was used for a gas tank to extend range. That would be the normal configuration.

The last E was the E-5. Only 65 or so of these were built and the main intent was hanging the Fritz-X anti-shipping missile under the wings. The 217K and M models did this better and replaced the E line. The E-4 was being replaced by the 217K in September 1942, even.

Initially they were used for bombing (ca. 1940 to 1942), but the majority of the effort they put into the war up until 1944-45 was recon, maritime patrol, anti-shipping with glider bombs or rockets, and eventually a large portion was night fighter variants. After the 217E every major model that was made (J/K/M/N) was used mostly for recon, glider bombs, or night fighting. None of which "work" with Aces High.

Of the total 500 or so E models that were made, they were used for navy patrols, anti shipping duties, glider bombs, as well as revenge bombings ordered by Hitler on British cities. Only so many were used for level bombing and still suffered very heavy losses anywhere allied fighters found them. While they aren't "nothing" in the historical sense, I still say they are a drop in the bucket compared to German production numbers and other aircraft. They're a footnote.

*end copy/paste*

Now let's talk production....

•Prototypes: 15
•Dornier Do 217A: 8
•Dornier Do 217C: 5
•Dornier Do 217E-0, Dornier Do 217E-1, Dornier Do 217E-2: ~200
•Dornier Do 217E-3: 100
•Dornier Do 217E-4: ~500
•Dornier Do 217J: 157
•Dornier Do 217K, Dornier Do 217M: ~520
•Dornier Do 217N: 207
•Dornier Do 217P: 6
•Dornier Do 217R: 5

The K and M combined (they were really the same plane with different engines) can't surpass the E variants in use or numbers. Initially intended as a bomber, most were (again) used for maritime patrols and anti-shipping use with 2 Fritz-X under the wings and no other bombloads. The M was only a re-engined version with slightly less powerful engines, because the BMW810 used by the K models was in too strong a demand for building Fw190s (yes, same engine!). Otherwise they can be considered the same plane. The performance of the -M wasn't very good even when clean. Soviets tested a captured variant and were impressed with the strong engines but not the performance of the plane. It only managed a maximum of 298mph clean and took over 15 minutes to climb to about 16,000 feet. The K and M series were both reputed to have about the same speed, some 20mph faster than the -E variants.

The J and the N were night fighter variants. Often the Ns were used as test platforms for NJG to figure out what worked and what didn't, then pass on those findings to 110Gs for implementation. Often even when pushed to the limit it had a hard time catching its targets, so weighed down with weapons and fuel that it was rather slow. They were almost entirely removed from the night fighter fleet as soon as 110Gs or Ju88s were available to replace them. They were not satisfactory in that role. Noted ace Rudi Schornert pushed one for all it was worth when he was in NJG 5, and it took him quite a painfully long time to catch a simple B-25 Mitchell. Not surprising since they overloaded the platform too much, and the empty weight alone was often almost 2000kg more than the 217E-2 model!

Keep in mind they could only carry 2500kg internally. The rest of that 8800 bombload was often guided bombs and rocket bombs, which were carried on underwing or under-fuselage (negating use of bomb bays) launch points, and often were many thousands of pounds EACH. So that 8800 lb payload may have simply been 2 guided bombs or Fritz-X's each weighing about 4400lbs (though I have not looked up the specific weights of such systems) or they may simply be theoretical bombload limits. I have read that a lot of them simply carried aux fuel tanks in the internal bomb bays so they had greater range for roaming around looking for targets for their 2 guided rockets. It could very well be the 8800lbs includes 6000lbs worth of gas or some other consideration.

Practically speaking, it would have less of a payload (in conventional bombs) than our Ju88 has. The VAST majority of the duties this plane performed in WW2 do not relate to Aces High. Long range recon? No need for that in this game. Maritime anti-shipping duties? No civilian ships in this game to hunt. Guided rockets and bombs? Not in this game, and probably never will be simply because of how they will be used against carriers in this game. Those that actually dropped bombs in WW2 were relatively few, compared to those that shot rockets or photos.

In short, it's not really a good fit for this game.



P.S. The Do17 was a minor player in the BOB and was already on its way out, being replaced by 217s even at that time. It's not needed at all. We'd need a Ju88A-1 to round out the BOB planeset and some more fighter variants, but we could quite happily get along without ever having a Do17.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:25:25 PM by Krusty »

Offline Karnak

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2013, 11:29:42 PM »
What is your take on the Ju188, Krusty?
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 11:34:46 PM »
What is your take on the Ju188, Krusty?

If it's as incorrect has his take on the Do 217 (we have been there again and again), I wouldn't bother with it.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 11:45:10 PM »
If it's as incorrect has his take on the Do 217 (we have been there again and again), I wouldn't bother with it.
Ah.  I am not nearly familiar with the Do217 to gainsay him.

I do disagree with him on the Do17Z.  It was a pretty major participant in the Battle of Britain and was still in use for Barbarossa.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2013, 12:36:58 AM »
I'm not incorrect on the 217. It was used as a level bomber, no denying that, but nowhere near the same level as Heinkels and Junkers were. The VAST majority of its uses in WW2 was not for level bombing.

You may have helped me learn a bit about some of the dates and when it was first used -- I was off a bit on some of that a long while back -- but I was NOT wrong about the numbers produced and their uses throughout the war. This is not about introduction dates nor timelines and schedules during the BOB. That is what the earlier discussions were about. This is total production numbers and use during the entire war. Nothing more.


As for the 188, I think it is a far more logical airframe to include in the game, as it was being ramped up to replace the Ju88s as the pre-eminent frontline bomber. It wasn't able to do this, and it never really replaced it, but it was common enough.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2013, 03:10:24 AM »
Quick and dirty list from Wiki:

Units that used the 217:
Nachtjagdgeschwader 1
Nachtjagdgeschwader 2
Nachtjagdgeschwader 4
Nachtjagdgeschwader 5
Nachtjagdgeschwader 6
Nachtjagdgeschwader 100
Kampfgeschwader 2
Kampfgeschwader 6
Kampfgeschwader 40
Kampfgeschwader 100
Kampfgeschwader 200

6 nightfighter squadrons and 5 bomber squadrons. Ignoring the NJG units, since this topic is about the 217 as a BOMBER... Let's dig into that list.

The following units and gruppen used the Do217. I have skipped the gruppen that did NOT use it, as no KG used it exclusively and had other planes in use in various other gruppen.

KG2: KG2 was one of the first to convert to the 217, but even so it didn't last.

  • Stab./KG2 had less than 40 of those and lost almost half, and had too many losses in 1942 and were withdrawn to vichy France to simply help "occupy" the country or some such. I think it was a down time to regroup and reorganize, but this is just guessing. They never had more than 20 Do217s at peak in 1942, and after that barely had 3 or 4 for the rest of the war.
  • I./KG2 apparently had about 36 early in 1942 at peak, and it drops to the 20s until April 1944 when it disappears, replaced by the Ju188 completely. I cannot find out ANYTHING about I./KG2's particular mission, just that they used them. Given the dates and other gruppen in KG2 it's likely used in mixed level bombing of coastal targets and minelaying/maritime patrol.
  • II./KG2 had already migrated to Ju188s in fall 1943, and they continued on in predominantly anti-shipping roles with minelaying and maritime patrols. They carried on the tasks that the 217s had already been doing. In short, mostly maritime patrol. No doubt there was some conventional bombing, but it doesn't seem the main task. At peak they barely had 30 planes, give or take, and in 1943 often much less.I have read the following: After Dieppe, in which KG2 lost 1/4 of its forces, most raids were nuisance raids, on coastal shipping or targets (yes that means level bombing) but only in pairs and under radar to avoid detection. That continued for most of a year, until they re-equipped with 217Ks and Ms in 1943. Now, I don't know if that is correct but seems to be close. That's pretty low usage for most of a year.
  • III./KG2 flew them without much impact on the history books until mid 1944 when it was dissolved into a night fighting unit intended to fly Do335s. At peak in 1942 they had 35 planes on hand, but through most of 1943 with the Ks and Ms they often only had numbers in the teens. By summer 1944 they could barely field 10 airframes.

KG6 apparently had some Do217s on hand in the single digits (never more than 10, often less), but was predominantly flying Ju88s and 188s in every major combat I could find reference to. The only references I can find is a single gruppe of KG6 was sent to re-organize for Do217 pathfinders in mid 1943. These single-digit airframes may have been training craft for this purpose. By this time they were mostly flying Ju188s and a mix of late-model Ju88s, but also some Heinkels. So, they sent pilots from 1 gruppe to re-organize. They didn't field the Do217 in combat themselves. That negates this KG on the list of units that used it.

KG40 was the primary maritime patrol unit of the Luftwaffe in WW2. No mystery what their role was. They started out simply as recon, radioing ship locations to wolfpacks (u-boats), and then later attacking them directly. They also fielded other bomber types ranging from He177s to Fw200s, but all in the same anti-shipping and recon role.

  • II/KG40 formed in May 1941 to use Do217s, but did so alongside Heinkels as well. They converted to Me410s and He177s after May 1943 give or take, and no 217s were used after that. IV./KG40 MAY have fielded Do217s, but there was a large reorganization and many different gruppen swapped names and designations and others were consolidated to re-form different gruppe. From what I can understand and gather, it seems a number of II./KG40s Do217 gruppen were the same as those in IV./KG40. For any given month in the war (according to ww2.dk, if it is to be believed) II./KG40 never had more than 30 of any 217 variant on hand, and never had more than 40 COMBINED variants (Es and Ks mixed), and IV./KG40 had none at all during any month, so I don't think IV./KG40 used them. Seems to be predominantly maritime patrol using guided missiles, as they also upgraded to He177s using more guided bombs and missiles as the war continued, and a number of Me410s were converted for maritime patrol with surface radar to search for enemy ships.

KG100 photographic evidence shows they used a mix of night fighters and normal variants.

  • Stab/KG100 was formed in 1941, but didn't get Do217s until April 1943 give or take. They continued to use these late into 1944 before being totally disbanded as a squadron, but never exceeded single-digit use of the plane.
  • Part of II./KG100 was absorbed along with other parts of other squadrons to use He111s and Do217Es along with Hs293 guided missiles specifically. At peak in 1943 it had mid-40s on hand, but by early 1944 they often had only numbers in the teens on a month by month basis. After April 1944 none are shown on the order of battle.
  • III./KG100 used Do217Ks and Fritz X guided bomb combinations from mid 1943 until disbandment in 1944, although at the end they only had a single-digits of planes of ANY type by that time.
  • IV./KG100 started showing Do217s on roster in June 1943, with some 53 total, but by the next month were down to some 23 or so. After that initial spike they rarely had more than 20 combined from all types and in 1944 all 217s are almost nonexistent on thier roster.

KG200: And finally we come to KG200, which among other things was responsible for dropping special agents behind enemy lines on covery missions, for flying captured allied planes around to unit to teach axis pilots how better to attack and identify them, and also was formed from 2 test squadrons into a single unit and was NOT a frontline bomber unit. They had extensive recon operations (mostly using Ju86s, though). This unit was NOT using the Do217 for any conventional purposes.



So, 6 night fighter squadrons and 5 KG squadrons, of which 2 of those didn't even use it. So that leaves 3 KG squadrons, of which I've broken down the very basic use on a gruppen-by-gruppen basis.

Of those 3 we have KG2, KG4, and KG100, of which KG40 and KG100 appear to be almost exclusively maritime patrol and anti-shipping (with maritime recon thrown in).

That means only KG2 really used them for conventional bombing of cities or targets, and only 3 gruppen (plus a small number in the Stab), of which one of the gruppen was out of action for most of a year.

To sum up, 2 gruppen in 1 Kampfgeschwader used this plane regularly, and even counting the 1 gruppe that was out for most of 1942, they STILL only fielded 100 planes during any given month. After Dieppe, make that 2 gruppen fielding 70 planes. That's at peak. Going by later dates in 1942 you've got some 40 planes between the lot, and less if you get into early 1943!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 03:12:58 AM by Krusty »

Offline Zacherof

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 03:21:04 AM »
If we need it for the BOB scenario's then why don't we have it already? What we really need is Russian bombers, hell, maybe even some French fighters.


Right now we don't need more hangar queens added. We need plane sets filled out.
Us luft weenies need our He117 :old:
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Offline Denniss

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2013, 06:24:42 AM »
Some real production numbers:
Prototypes: 4
A-0/C-0: 9 each
E-1: 94
E-2/E-4: 629 - this is either E-2 to E-4 combined or only E-2 and E-4
E-5: 67 + 34 from upgraded E-4
J-1: 130
K-1: 220
K-2: 50 upgraded K-1
K-3: 40 up-/downgraded M-1
M-1: 438
M-11: 37 upgraded M-1
N-1/N-2: 325
H: 3 rebuilt airframes
P: 4 rebuilt airframes
R: 4 rebuilt airframes

Starting with E-2 were capable of holding 3t of internal bombload (given as 3xSD1000 or 2xSD100 + 2x SD/SC500 with CoG shifting rearwards). Additional fuel tanks are given as 750l, either attached to the rear or forward internal bombs station or to both (rear to be used first).

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2013, 10:55:24 AM »
bomber wise I'd like to see the Dornier 217  after the TU-2.   Both of these would not be hangar queens in LWMA. 
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2013, 03:00:43 PM »
bomber wise I'd like to see the Dornier 217  after the TU-2.   Both of these would not be hangar queens in LWMA. 

Pe-2 and Tu-2 should come before any other bombers and even some fighters.
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2013, 03:01:51 PM »
bomber wise I'd like to see the Dornier 217  after the TU-2.   Both of these would not be hangar queens in LWMA. 
But wouldnt the 188 be a better bomber MA wise?
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Do 217
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2013, 03:40:39 PM »
Actually, just spec-wise, the late model 217 would be a bit better than the 188. Especially since it could carry some larger loadouts internally where the 188 must carry all large loadouts externally (more drag, slows the plane down). Historically, I personally think the 188 is a better representation of what was used to drop bombs on targets, though.

EDIT: Although, from what I read, that is only true at max speeds. Apparently the 217 had a rather poor cruising speed and the 188 was much faster at cruise than the 217 at cruise, given similar loadouts, and that even so it used a fraction of the fuel a 217 needed to fly slower. Something about the drag or design of the wing or -- heck I don't know. I just ran across mention of a report about it that summed it up thusly. I haven't read the report myself (I assume it's in German).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 03:42:57 PM by Krusty »