Author Topic: Making a case for later D models  (Read 2875 times)

Offline 33Vortex

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Making a case for later D models
« on: September 16, 2013, 12:39:47 PM »
Ok, so we have the D-9 in the game. Everyone are or at least should be quite well aware of it, what it can do etc and it is a fact that it is one of the more popular aircraft in the AH inventory. However there were three more main FW190D versions the D-11, D-12 and D-13. These types are all really the same aircraft as the D-9 with the main difference that it has the Junker Jumo 213E engine, instead of the 213A. It is the same engine that we have in AH already in the Ta152H.
Development of the FW190 line of a/c progressed much the same way the P47 designations did (P47D-11, D-25 and so on). Now, some 17 D-11s were manufactured, only three D-12s because it was cancelled in favor of the D-13 of which it is deemed probable 17 or more were manufactured but it is unknown if they saw combat. The only difference between the three types is armament otherwise they are identical. This makes for 30 or more manufactured, the D-11 did see combat that is confirmed as JV44s Platzschutzstaffel downed a P47 with one D-11.

The differences vs the much more common and well known D-9 are:
Larger air intake because of the Jumo 213E and flat cowling gun access panel since they were deleted (same nose as on the Ta152H) on all models.
D-11, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + 2 x outboard Mk108.
D-12, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + single Mk108 motorkanone (identical setup to the Ta152H we have).
D-13, 2 x inboard MG151/20 + single MG151/20 motorkanone.

The point is that these three are the same aircraft except in armament. It is also known that these armament modifications could be made in the field, so a D-11 could become a D-13 or D-12 simply by swapping cannons around. The most famous Dora today is a D-13, Yellow 10 of JG26 Kommodore Franz Götz now in the hands of the Flying Heritage Collection, in flyable condition yet never flown. As a sidenote they also own the only BMW801D powered FW190A remaining to this day.

Introduction of the later Dora models were not as if a unit received a new aircraft type, the new types were mixed with the more common D-9 for obvious reasons. It is the same aircraft with the only significant difference being the engine upgrade.

Now in light of the state of the game I know how this comes across. The discussion on late Luftwaffe planes seem to be never ending on these boards. However I think the addition should interest HTC in that it requires minimal work to include it, and the marketing aspect. This of course, without knowing what HTC is working on in terms of features and upgrades to strengthen the marketing position. However it is my take on it that most of the requested Luftwaffe rides that appear time and time again here require not only a new model, but also a flight model to be built without any data available, besides the fact that the requested type many times never saw combat. Personally I'm a huge fan of the 152 series and the C in particular, but I don't hope to see that one in AH any time soon. The later D models however are not a stretch, they are essentially identical to the D-9 but deserve a perk for the engine upgrade which is no small affair in terms of performance improvement over the D-9.

So I make a wish for any of the later D models to be included, but D-11 or D-13 would be most logical. I don't know if HTC see this as worthwhile but one thing is for sure, if it was added it would satisfy the Luftwaffe crowd in this game probably for a long time ahead.

To my peers, the addition in question would not be a super bomber killer, a D-13 would be worse off at altitude than the Ta152H heavier than the D-9 but faster. D-13 much the same as D-9 only faster so I guess it would be a pony killer, but I guess we have several pony killers in the game already such as the F4U-4. The historical rarity and performance does warrant a perk penalty, but that is all.




Here is the only surviving and still airworthy Dora in the world. The D-13 of Franz Götz Geschwaderkommodore JG26. It is the same aircraft that was tested post-war in mock air combat against a Tempest V, for the occasion piloted by Major Heinz Lange (10 flights in a D-9) who was not informed it was a D-13 he was flying and not a D-9.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:46:12 PM by 33Vortex »

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Offline Zoney

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 12:51:18 PM »
Good lord that is a beautiful aircraft.

Since 33vortex did not beg, I will.

Please give us the 190D11.

Please give us the 190D13.

Please give us the TA152-C.

If you give us the TA152-C I promise to shoot down only 2 of the bombers I engaged in a set of 3 and then let the last one return to base.

I promise to be good and do my chores.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 12:55:53 PM »
We need earlier Fw190s, not later "what-if" versions.
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 12:56:07 PM »
Add them with a small perk cost.  I think they would make a nice addition to the game.
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Offline Zoney

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 01:07:13 PM »
We need earlier Fw190s, not later "what-if" versions.

How is the D13 shown in the Photograph a what-if version.

And I'm also quite sure the guy that Gotz shot down would rather still be alive (if he didn't successfully bail out) had the D11 what iffed not been real.

C'mon what's a few more 190's going to hurt the game.  There will still be the same number of pilots flying them, just a few different models to choose from.

How many different Spitfire's do we have?  How many F4's?  How many P47's?

 :)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 01:08:46 PM by Zoney »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 01:11:59 PM »
190D-11 was not put into production according to Schiffer - Biography of Kurt Tank. Prototype was scheduled for weaposn testing but was lost in a crash 9 October 1944. The second Prototype V60 underwent flight testing from November 1944 and onward. Heavy effort was put into the D-11 program but despite the effort it never was put into production and development did not exceed beyond Prototypes.

Three Prototypes from the A-8 series were provided for the 190D-12 (V-62, V-63 and V64) all were equipt with the Jumo 213E. The Aircraft had been converted to the D-12 standard at Adelheide along with the V-62 which had a weapons configuration test. Aircrafts were cleared for operational flying in October/november in 1944. Half were armed with the Mk108 and other half MG151. Half of the production of prototypes built were to have four additional fuel tanks added (totalling 315 liters), however this concept was not implemented until the production of the Ta-152 started.

It does not give me how many were produced, however it says "During production" which means I need to follow up on this.

Dora D-13 - two prototypes were converted from the A-8 series for the Fw-190D-13, the two were cleared for flight testing November and december 1944. Does not say if any were producted.

190D-14 blueprints and construction documents were completed around March 1945 same with 190D-15.

I don't seem to have any production numbers on these either, anyone have them?
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 01:33:35 PM »

At least (17) D-13's were produced.  (W.Nr 732053 - 732070) Some were D-11, D-12 converts.  At least two saw limited action.  A beautiful ride, maybe the most beuatiful, and certainly not a what if...but we do need earlier 190's more...and modifications to the existing ones as well.





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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 01:34:28 PM »
We need earlier Fw190s, not later "what-if" versions.

These are not what-ifs.

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Offline Arlo

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 01:36:35 PM »
These are not what-ifs.

Nor are they must-haves.

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 01:37:45 PM »
At least (17) D-13's were produced.  (W.Nr 732053 - 732070) Some were D-11, D-12 converts.  At least two saw limited action.  A beautiful ride, maybe the most beuatiful, and certainly not a what if...but we do need earlier 190's more...and modifications to the existing ones as well.

This I have to agree with. The request still stand though. The later D models are not what-if's, they were produced in numbers exceeding squadron strength and introduced into units already equipped with the D-9.

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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 01:39:21 PM »
Nor are they must-haves.

Missed again, where did I say they are must haves? Besides, are there any must haves? Was the He111 a must-have to play BoB? Are underpants a must-have to fly AH?

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 01:42:01 PM »
These are not what-ifs.
Yes they are.  They are "what if Focke-Wulf had produced and delivered them in quantities." type what ifs.  Not the Ta183 type of what if.

Where does this sort of thing end?  Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action?  How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 01:43:13 PM »
This I have to agree with. The request still stand though. The later D models are not what-if's, they were produced in numbers exceeding squadron strength and introduced into units already equipped with the D-9.

I know roughly 700 doras were produced, however I have no numbers for anything more then the D-9 - most of the D-11 and on were prototypes and there were quite a few prototypes. For example those 17 D-13s were used to test various gun packages and differences (like the wing fuel tanks that later was put on the Ta-152)
If they were just starting the testing phase in November/December 1944, how many really could of been produced by January 1945?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 01:45:12 PM by Butcher »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 01:43:54 PM »
Missed again, where did I say they are must haves? Besides, are there any must haves? Was the He111 a must-have to play BoB? Are underpants a must-have to fly AH?

I would never fly if that were the case...
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Making a case for later D models
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 01:46:35 PM »
Yes they are.  They are "what if Focke-Wulf had produced and delivered them in quantities." type what ifs.  Not the Ta183 type of what if.

Where does this sort of thing end?  Seventeen D-13s and two saw limited action?  How many other fighters and bombers would this push onto the table?

In that context AH is the biggest what-if. Following your own logic, how can you even stand flying in the MA?

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