Best Heavy Fighter

[J.A.W.]

 I've read that ol' Kohz was a Stalin special propaganda star..

 & his P-51/Me 262 claims may not stand actual scrutiny..

Anyone here seen the supposed Soviet P-51 shoot-down gun-cam footage,
 which is most likely.. over-dubbed LW stock?

& Knak, you are correct about pilot ability,
 AFAIK ..the P-51 FGs in Britain would keep an old hack P-40 on hand to demonstrate to the
cocky new-fledged Mustang jocks what a real top-gun fly-boy could do.. even in a junker..

[Butcher]

There were instances of Mustangs engaging VVS fighters in 'mistaken ' combat,
& AFAIK, the pony jocks had them Ruskies on toast..

Brooke, thanks for posting that Osprey title..

Boy you need to do some reading because these is absolutely false. Both russian and Americans took a beating when they faced each other, more of a bloody nose (few losses each side). Neither side did overwhelming good.
The Russians were escorting some B-17s and P-51 pilots though the B-17s were under attack, Mistaking La-7's for Fw-190s.

Russian ace claimed "2" kills, while americans claimed 2 russians - however I am not entirely sure on the battle or the russian ace to confirm this, its one of those stories I can't confirm and secondly his book is in russian and I can't translate it.

A second fight Between Yaks and P-38s ended up with.........2 losses each! P-38s were on ground attack mission (I think?) and were jumped, one was claimed by AAA the other a Yak, the Yaks took two losses.

So 4-4 is the score that I know of.

[J.A.W.]

4-4!

US vs Ruskies... Whaaaa?

Naww.. ..jest caynt be...

Say now boy, you aint one o' them gardamn carmunists - are ya?

 ..L.O.L...

[MiloMorai]

4-4!

US vs Ruskies... Whaaaa?

Naww.. ..jest caynt be...

Say now boy, you aint one o' them gardamn carmunists - are ya?

 ..L.O.L...

More blah blah blah.

How about you post the details and the results of these US vs Soviet combats.

[J.A.W.]

You CAN look things up m.m., ..but can you do a useful post.. ..rather than a snarky one?

[MiloMorai]

You CAN look things up m.m., ..but can you do a useful post.. ..rather than a snarky one?

More blah blah blah.

You made the statement, so you back it up with examples.

[J.A.W.]

You just made my ignore list blah boy..

[MiloMorai]

You just made my ignore list blah boy..

I see a png coming soon so everyone will be on your ignore list.

[GScholz]

J.A.W. could you please put me on your ignore list too?

[-ammo-]

Boy you need to do some reading because these is absolutely false. Both russian and Americans took a beating when they faced each other, more of a bloody nose (few losses each side). Neither side did overwhelming good.
The Russians were escorting some B-17s and P-51 pilots though the B-17s were under attack, Mistaking La-7's for Fw-190s.

Russian ace claimed "2" kills, while americans claimed 2 russians - however I am not entirely sure on the battle or the russian ace to confirm this, its one of those stories I can't confirm and secondly his book is in russian and I can't translate it.

A second fight Between Yaks and P-38s ended up with.........2 losses each! P-38s were on ground attack mission (I think?) and were jumped, one was claimed by AAA the other a Yak, the Yaks took two losses.

So 4-4 is the score that I know of.

I read a book last spring (The German Aces Speak) and I believe it was Edouard Neumann that witnessed Russian and U.S Mustangs engage on the Eastern battle lines.  Obviously it was late in the war.  That kind if stuff happened late.  A good example of the fog of war.

[J.A.W.]

J.A.W. could you please put me on your ignore list too?

'Nonsense'...L.O.L..

[J.A.W.]

I read a book last spring (The German Aces Speak) and I believe it was Edouard Neumann that witnessed Russian and U.S Mustangs engage on the Eastern battle lines.  Obviously it was late in the war.  That kind if stuff happened late.  A good example of the fog of war.

Yeah, & I have read some accounts written by RAF pilots referring to encounters with the VVS,
describing them as a flying 'rabble' - no formation discipline, & seemingly no ground control
support..

 RAF chaps felt they could've given them a decent thrashing,  had it been required..

& certainly - that was the LW view too, they found the Western front much tougher..

[Butcher]

Yeah, & I have read some accounts written by RAF pilots referring to encounters with the VVS,
describing them as a flying 'rabble' - no formation discipline, & seemingly no ground control
support..

 RAF chaps felt they could've given them a decent thrashing,  had it been required..

& certainly - that was the LW view too, they found the Western front much tougher..

Interesting, can you please share where you got this info? I've never heard it before - ever, in the thousands of books I have I don't recall many instances where either side mentioned much of anything, one of the reasons for this is many aces after the war for the russians did not write books as well as combat records were almost forgotten on the russian side. Interesting how the Luftwaffe felt the Russians were terrible considering they were ordered to not engage any Yaks late in the war. Fact is Luftwaffe planes were dropping like flies on the west and eastern front.

Early in the war? sure I can see the Russians lack formation discipline or no ground control, late in the war? It would be hard to compare the US, British and Russia considering the Luftwaffe was all but smashed in 1945. Then again you claim the Russians were a joke, yet the Luftwaffe had standing orders not to engage certain russian aircraft, why is this? If they are subhuman they should not be to worried about how good an aircraft is, unless the pilot happens to be just as good.

The Germans had a war on two front's, I don't think any country during WW2 could of handled this scenario - even the mighty US.

[J.A.W.]

Check the memoir of top ETO Allied ace Johnny Johnson, "Wing Leader"..

He used the term 'rabble'..to describe the VVS units he encountered..

The LW were capable of putting up organised air-combat sorties - limited of course - in scale,
though - by comparison to the Allies massive available strength.

 Still the LW were flying ( largely) technically competent & organised ops, albeit affected by the realities of war situation - which obviously caused logistic difficulties  plus the severe pressure from
attacks on their airfields , infrastructure, &  sheer numbers of allied planes in the air..

But they were flying, fighting & claiming victories against the Allies - right to the final days of the war, with remarkably creditable effort, considering..


& AFAIK, that 'do not engage' order to the Jagdwaffe - is  just another propaganda myth..

From memory - the VVS only accounted for ~15% of LW A2A losses..

& the LW ratio of victory-to-loss on the Eastern front was always higher too..

[MiloMorai]

It is not a propaganda myth, just the typical modification that happens. Ever play the game where a person whispers something in someones ear and it is passed down the line? The final is nothing like the original.

It has been discussed on many boards over the years. What emerged was that some commander sent a notification to some other commanders that the Soviets had a new fighter that was very similar to one already in service. This new a/c was much more dangerous than the other a/c.