Flaps usage in real combat

[Brent Haliday]

There are more then five accounts recalled in this thread at least two from the LW.  I agree the usage in AH is not realistic, point of fact is that not a lot about the flaps or trim in AH is realistic. 

The game is what it is is I revert to the rally racing game based strictly on the owners manuals example.  Not very realistic, and when the French cars are allowed to use their parking brakes to rotate their cars in a corner and the other cars are not just because the French owners manuals mentions the possibility of doing that, and the other manufactures do not suggest that the parking brake could be used for anything but parking.  Well that would have real consequences in the game, and since anyone who cares to look knows that all the cars have parking brakes and can and are used for all kinds of car handling solutions in the real world then you will have lots of justifiably disgruntled players.  Like I said easy to defend but known to be wrong and unfair and defending that decision will eventually reflect poorly on whoever tries.

[Brooke]

There are more then five accounts recalled in this thread at least two from the LW. 

Yes, as I've said, there are a bunch I've read from US point of view, but I (that is myself) have not read any first-hand accounts from LW point of view.  The ones posted here from LW point of view are what someone else has read in a reference, but I didn't read that reference; and one of those are 109's, right?

I agree the usage in AH is not realistic, point of fact is that not a lot about the flaps or trim in AH is realistic. 

I completely 100% disagree with that statement.  This from my point of view knowing about aircraft dynamics and having flown some real aircraft (including mock combat at Air Combat USA).

[Brent Haliday]

Yes, as I've said, there are a bunch I've read from US point of view, but I (that is myself) have not read any first-hand accounts from LW point of view.  The ones posted here from LW point of view are what someone else has read in a reference, but I didn't read that reference; and one of those are 109's, right?

I completely 100% disagree with that statement.  This from my point of view knowing about aircraft dynamics and having flown some real aircraft (including mock combat at Air Combat USA).

The statement you quoted in 100  % disagreement was 1/2 directed to you in agreement to your previous agreement with the observation that player flap usage in AH is often not historically accurate.  

As far as accuracy goes; this thread is about how the physical limits of deployment speeds are not accounted for in game and instead POH documentation is used.  Add to that the different types of flaps that are all treated the same by the game, consequently creating limited or expanded settings for most models, representing split, simple, etc. the same would also be incorrect. Now I am not sure they are not treated differently, but when you consider the specifics of operation are not taken into account, we have no reason to expect that the specifics of the different types are taken into account either.

Trim is also one size fits all even though different aircraft get about trimming very differently.  Different approaches have different consequences so treating them the same can also only be unrealistic.

[Brooke]

The statement you quoted in 100  % disagreement was 1/2 directed to you in agreement to your previous agreement with the observation that player flap usage in AH is often not historically accurate.  

The planes are modeled correctly, I believe.  The difference is that the Main Arena conditions of battle are not (and cannot be) like scenarios.

As far as accuracy goes; this thread is about how the physical limits of deployment speeds are not accounted for in game

I believe that they are accurate and based on data.  Your opinion seems based only on personal feeling, as you don't post any data or analysis.

and instead POH documentation is used

I don't think that either of us knows the source of data used.

Add to that the different types of flaps that are all treated the same by the game

I don't believe that to be true, based on things like http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/aces_high/stallSpeedMath/turningMath.html.

, consequently creating limited or expanded settings for most models, representing split, simple, etc. the same would also be incorrect. Now I am not sure they are not treated differently, but when you consider the specifics of operation are not taken into account, we have no reason to expect that the specifics of the different types are taken into account either.

I don't think so.  I don't know why you would think that, as you don't seem to have any contrary data or analysis, and from your comments, it seems like you have not read much about the field of aircraft dynamics.

Trim is also one size fits all even though different aircraft get about trimming very differently.  Different approaches have different consequences so treating them the same can also only be unrealistic.

Same comment as above.

[Saxman]

Brooke,

He's correct about trim to a point: I believe the 190 didn't have rudder trim at all, and some other aircraft didn't have trim for all three axes.

[Brooke]

Brooke,

He's correct about trim to a point: I believe the 190 didn't have rudder trim at all, and some other aircraft didn't have trim for all three axes.

Yes, but to go from something like that to a statement that the trimming overall in Aces High is not realistic and has unfortunate consequences is a very large leap.

[FLS]

Yes, but to go from something like that to a statement that the trimming overall in Aces High is not realistic and has unfortunate consequences is a very large leap.

Sometimes it's more miscommunication then disagreement.

[Brent Haliday]

Trim usage is very important to become good at dogfighting in AH, while historically it was nearly inconsequential in a dogfight.

There are significant differences between fixed tabs adjusted on the ground and adjustable tabs adjusted in flight.  Even more different are the possible consequences of the differences in a trim tab and a "flying" stabilizer system.

Does trim generally work in AH yes, but it's necessity to maneuverability is severely over represented according to historic pilot accounts. 

As far as data goes, my rally game explains that quite well.  As I have explained how relatively simple it is to calculate and verify the force load speed/deflection relationship.  I have also explained why it would be pointless to post speed restrictions on variable deflection flap systems that did not have specific settings like the 109, especially since flap overspeed damage was so rare that it is as far as I have seen impossible to find any documented instances of that on any WW2 fighter aircraft from any operator, and since I have been asking for any of the well informed experts here to post anything they have on that subject and days later no one has even chimed in to say they have ever heard of that actually happening I will consider my point made, until someone steps forward with anything to the contrary.

Now my original reason for chiming in was to dispel the idea that flying around with all the drag you can produce and maneuvering the way people do in AH could only end poorly in real world air combat, and specifically that guppy's example that stated 6o degrees was not a reference to the flap deployment angle but rather to the deflection shot that the pilot was attempting.

That being said, I think I am done here.  I am sorry that the operators in ww2 did not anticipate all our data desires and have everything ready for us to plug into our video games. 
I think they had other things on their mind, and that means that if we want the truth of things we will need to look for it, and sometimes even figure it out for ourselves convenient data available or not.

[FLS]

Trim usage is very important to become good at dogfighting in AH, while historically it was nearly inconsequential in a dogfight.

Does trim generally work in AH yes, but it's necessity to maneuverability is severely over represented according to historic pilot accounts.

I haven't seen anything to support these statements. Trimming becomes automatic, why would pilot reports mention it? Trim is not for maneuverability. Combat trim was not a feature in WW2. Trim is for drag reduction and accurate shooting.

[Puma44]

I haven't seen anything to support these statements. Trimming becomes automatic, why would pilot reports mention it? Trim is not for maneuverability. Combat trim was not a feature in WW2. Trim is for drag reduction and accurate shooting.

Trimming is a natural part of flying any aircraft effectively.  It's doubtful that pilots would give a blow by blow account of how and when they trimmed the aircraft, just as they wouldn't describe how they adjusted manifold pressure and RPM during a dogfight.  The tactics and how effective they were are more important in an after action report.  

[Puma44]

I haven't seen anything to support these statements. Trimming becomes automatic, why would pilot reports mention it? Trim is not for maneuverability. Combat trim was not a feature in WW2. Trim is for drag reduction and accurate shooting.

Double tap...

[Brooke]

Trim usage is very important to become good at dogfighting in AH, while historically it was nearly inconsequential in a dogfight.

There are significant differences between fixed tabs adjusted on the ground and adjustable tabs adjusted in flight.  Even more different are the possible consequences of the differences in a trim tab and a "flying" stabilizer system.

Does trim generally work in AH yes, but it's necessity to maneuverability is severely over represented according to historic pilot accounts. 

I almost never need to fuss with trim in combat, and trim in AH works about the same as it does in real life.  I'm very surprised to see anyone making an issue out of something as minor an issue and as well-handled as trim.

As far as data goes, my rally game explains that quite well. . . .

That's not data -- that's your personal feelings.  When a person says something like "flap deployment speed in the FW 190 is wrong -- it should be X mph", data backing up that statement are references on the FW 190 that say things like "do not drop first setting of flaps in FW 190 at over X mph."

As I have explained how relatively simple it is to calculate and verify the force load speed/deflection relationship.

You have to start with some data before you calculate anything.  You keep stating that flap-deployment speeds are wrong, but you give absolutely no specifics or data.

 I have also explained why it would be pointless to post speed restrictions on variable deflection flap systems that did not have specific settings like the 109, especially since flap overspeed damage was so rare that it is as far as I have seen impossible to find any documented instances of that on any WW2 fighter aircraft from any operator, and since I have been asking for any of the well informed experts here to post anything they have on that subject and days later no one has even chimed in to say they have ever heard of that actually happening I will consider my point made, until someone steps forward with anything to the contrary.

For the 109 it doesn't matter, since the limiting speed is high enough so that if it were higher it wouldn't matter.  There are only a small number of aircraft where a higher flap-deployment speed would matter.  The FW 190 is one, so if you have some data for the 190 saying it's wrong in AH, that would be useful.  Same for A-20.

Now my original reason for chiming in was to dispel the idea that flying around with all the drag you can produce and maneuvering the way people do in AH could only end poorly in real world air combat,

My point is that (1) flying around with lots of flaps happened rarely in WWII, but not never, and there are plenty of accounts, and (2) that if the combat environment of WWII were like the MA, probably many more fights in real life would have entailed flying around with full flaps.

AH models flaps correctly.  Whether or not people use them is up to them.  Whether or not things would end poorly depends entirely on the fight and the situation.

[Oldman731]

Trimming is a natural part of flying any aircraft effectively.  It's doubtful that pilots would give a blow by blow account of how and when they trimmed the aircraft, just as they wouldn't describe how they adjusted manifold pressure and RPM during a dogfight.  The tactics and how effective they were are more important in an after action report. 

Oh, as if YOU should know!

Geez, some people....

- oldman

[WWhiskey]

In the game, the only time trim becomes important,, in my opinion,, is in the chase, if I'm trying to catch someone,, or trying to run for what ever reason I will always use the trim wheels ( set up on my throttle) it does make a difference in top speed to trim it in as well as slight turns and elevation changes to use the trim wheels instead of the stick,,  I found this out in a 262 in one of the racing leagues ,,,I could gain a good bit more speed flying with combat trim off using the trim wheels to fly the plane!   I would bet it was the same in real life,, trim was important for top speed but flight control input during hard maneuvers would probably not be effected enough to mess with,, especially if the pilot was busy trying to fight for his life!

[Puma44]

Oh, as if YOU should know!

Geez, some people....

- oldman