Author Topic: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)  (Read 2865 times)

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2014, 06:37:13 AM »
there are conflicting views regarding the fuel situation in Germany. If indeed there was a shortage was this because of 8AF bombing? or was it because Germany failed to secure oil wells around the world and safe transport of it to Germany?

No there was a significant drop in fuel production once the Allied air power was aimed at German fuel factories. However they werent targeted enough or early enough. We should have found the one weak link, fuel production would have been best, and just concentrated on that full time. Do remember "Over Lord" interrupted the strategic campaign at a crucial phase.

But more then anything the air war over Germany took away from the Germans much badly needed resources that could have been used to great effect on other fronts. All those men, all that steel production/ammo production, all the guns, the planes, the fuel, tied up needing to protect the skies over the FatherLand. If there was no air war what would the effects have been if those resources were instead aimed at the two other fronts? We'll never know exactly but I bet the impact would have been significant.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2014, 07:08:08 AM »
 :)
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2014, 10:01:04 AM »
We should have found the one weak link, fuel production would have been best, and just concentrated on that full time.


We thought we had that with the ball bearing industry.  Speer wondered why we didn't attack chemical factories and electrical production facilities, both of which he thought were few in number and susceptible to severe damage from bombing.

Hey, you don't get everything right the first time.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2014, 10:45:09 AM »
I'll just go by the conclusion of Roger A. Freeman, author of "The Mighty Eighth" and a consultant for the National Museum of the Mighty Eighth Air Force. The museum’s study department is today known as the ‘Roger A. Freeman Eighth Air Force Research Center’. So I think he's an authority on the subject.

"The Eighth Air Force was looked upon by USAAF commanders as their prime instrument to test their doctrine of strategic bombardment. The supreme hope was that such a campaign could render massive devastation to the war industry of a highly industrialised nation, like Germany, so that it would be unable to supply and support its armed forces; in effect, bombing into submission. In the event the combined strength of all Allied strategic forces proved unable to achieve this against Germany. What strategic bombing could achieve was evinced in the spring of 1945, but that it was decisive with the weapons and delivery systems of the Hitler war, must always remain speculative."
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Offline doright

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2014, 11:42:07 AM »
Interesting site:
http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/ussbsindex.html

I really liked the statement "There's a saying that amateurs study strategy while professionals study logistics."

What lead me to the site was this analysis of explosive production http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/ussbspowder.html Interesting analysis of Germany's use of natural camouflage and dispersed production at explosive processing facilities. The knockout blow to the explosives production wasn't direct bombing but killing oil production deprived them of raw materials and transportation among the dispersed facilities.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2014, 01:40:03 PM »
I'll just go by the conclusion of Roger A. Freeman, author of "The Mighty Eighth" and a consultant for the National Museum of the Mighty Eighth Air Force. The museum’s study department is today known as the ‘Roger A. Freeman Eighth Air Force Research Center’.

"The Eighth Air Force was looked upon by USAAF commanders as their prime instrument to test their doctrine of strategic bombardment. The supreme hope was that such a campaign could render massive devastation to the war industry of a highly industrialised nation, like Germany, so that it would be unable to supply and support its armed forces; in effect, bombing into submission. In the event the combined strength of all Allied strategic forces proved unable to achieve this against Germany. What strategic bombing could achieve was evinced in the spring of 1945, but that it was decisive with the weapons and delivery systems of the Hitler war, must always remain speculative."


Heh.  You're cherry-picking.

I consider Freeman to be one of aviation history's foremost authors, and "The Mighty Eighth" is a fantastic book.  So I think he's an authority on the subject, although his prime area of study was 8th AF operations, rather than economic analysis of the results thereof. The language you quote from his Chapter 30, however, is followed by these observations:

"The Eighth Air Force delivered 75% of its bombs after the Allies invaded the Continent, and it was the cumulative effect of sustained bombardment on such target systems as oil and transportation with its direct and indirect strain on German war economy, that brought the B-17s and B-24s their greatest contribution to victory."

"The effect of the US heavies from the fall of 1942 until the spring of 1944, although often spectacular, was never serious enough to have profound effect.  Germany's powers of recuperation were far greater than appreciated, and the small bombs carried by the B-17s and B-24s might destroy a factory building but not the precious machine tools within.  Attacks against aircraft factories, even the intensive period in early 1944, saw only a temporary decline in production.  On the other hand, it has been estimated that the dispersal programme instigated by the Germans in 1943 to escape the bombing possibly cost them more lost production than through actual damage to installations.  In assessing the part played by the Eighth and other Allied strategic bombing forces, the considerable tying down of personnel and material in defence, both active and passive must not be overlooked.  Such manpower and material might have been channelled into extra panzer divisions and so turned the scales in a land campaign."

Which, I think, is what we've been saying.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2014, 02:07:41 PM »
The bombers had little effect until after the Germans had already lost the war. In the end the greatest contribution they made was sacrificing themselves as bait so that the Allied fighters could draw the Luftwaffe into a war of attrition. The bombing itself didn't do much until 1945; after the Allies and Russians were at the gates of Germany itself and the German war machine was manned by children and geriatrics. Too little too late.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2014, 02:20:06 PM »
ww2 proved for the first time that those who controlled the sky would win the war.  and you say that bombing had no effect on the war.  I find that ironic.



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Offline bozon

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2014, 02:33:46 PM »
ww2 proved for the first time that those who controlled the sky would win the war.  and you say that bombing had no effect on the war.  I find that ironic.
How did it prove that? because the side that won also controlled the sky?
Well, the side that lost has really good beer. What does that prove?
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2014, 02:36:33 PM »
ww2 proved for the first time that those who controlled the sky would win the war.  and you say that bombing had no effect on the war.  I find that ironic.



semp

If that was true the Germans would have won at Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow and Kursk. They didn't. Air power is a great force multiplier, but the only thing that will win a war is boots on the ground.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2014, 02:56:19 PM »
If that was true the Germans would have won at Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow and Kursk. They didn't. Air power is a great force multiplier, but the only thing that will win a war is boots on the ground.

they didnt control the air.  otherwise the il2's wouldnt have had a field day with tanks.


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Offline Brooke

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2014, 03:25:48 PM »
In my opinion, the best book on bombing in the ETO is "Masters of the Air", by Miller.  It goes into all of this stuff in very great detail.

Also, with regard to effectiveness of bombing in war, it seems like most people here are forgetting what impact it had against Japan.  It reduced the country to rubble, making production by any means (even highly dispersed) a shambles.  Don't forget that, in the end, it was bombing that caused capitulation and eliminated the need for a huge invasion ("boots on the ground") and perhaps as many as 1 million allied and 10 million Japanese casualties.  Japan had plenty of troops and fight left on the home islands.  It would have been an Okinawa times 10.

And for anyone wanting to know what the Okinawa fighting was like, the best book on that topic is "With the Old Breed," by Sledge -- one of the very best 1st-hand accounts of war ever written, in my opinion.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2014, 05:33:53 PM »
The bombers had little effect until after the Germans had already lost the war. In the end the greatest contribution they made was sacrificing themselves as bait so that the Allied fighters could draw the Luftwaffe into a war of attrition.

I agree with both of these points.  The Germans lost the war on June 22, 1941.  You've read Freeman, so you know that 8th AF, after they switched Doolittle for Eaker, was sending the bombers on missions which clearly could not involve precision bombing, just so the escorts could destroy the Luftwaffe.  It worked very well.


The bombing itself didn't do much until 1945; after the Allies and Russians were at the gates of Germany itself and the German war machine was manned by children and geriatrics. Too little too late.

You aren't keeping up.  Even the ineffective 1942-43 bombing prompted the Germans to disperse their factories.  Once 8th AF woke up and started bombing the oil production facilities, Germany's armed forces slowed down right quick because they had no gas for training pilots, no kerosene for running tanks...and this was happening before the Normandy invasion.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2014, 06:19:12 PM »
Yet the Germans had significant fuel stocks left at VE Day, and had rebuilt much of their production. Their problem was distributing the fuel; air interdiction by allied fighter-bombers almost completely shut down the German transport and logistics network. The fuel was there, and the Luftwaffe flew even on the last day of the war in Europe. Also, their tanks did not run on kerosene.



As you can see, even when Hitler gave his Walter a blowjob there were tens-of-thousands of metric tons of fuel in stock.
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Offline jamdive

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Re: Bombers have no effect on the war? (The real one)
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2014, 06:41:05 PM »
I agree with both of these points.  The Germans lost the war on June 22, 1941.  You've read Freeman, so you know that 8th AF, after they switched Doolittle for Eaker, was sending the bombers on missions which clearly could not involve precision bombing, just so the escorts could destroy the Luftwaffe.  It worked very well.


You aren't keeping up.  Even the ineffective 1942-43 bombing prompted the Germans to disperse their factories.  Once 8th AF woke up and started bombing the oil production facilities, Germany's armed forces slowed down right quick because they had no gas for training pilots, no kerosene for running tanks...and this was happening before the Normandy invasion.

- oldman

I don't know of any german tank that ran on kerosene.