50 cal damage upped

[-ammo-]

Lets assume for a moment that 50 cal damage is not accurately modeled in Aces High.

Hans Joachim Marseille averaged something like two or three 20mm rounds for every kill. Now! In Aces High you'd be lucky to even tickle most aircraft with three 20mm's. So if you want 50 caliber damage increased I would like my 20mm's upped too please.

(Image removed from quote.)

Marseille was something of an anomaly.  Krupinski stated the precision of his deflection gunnery was unsurpassed in the LW, even compared to Hartmann.

[ReVo]

Marseille was something of an anomaly.  Krupinski stated the precision of his deflection gunnery was unsurpassed in the LW, even compared to Hartmann.

Even so, if I put three 20mm rounds in your wing it should come off.

[Randy1]

Last night I did take out the radar with one pass with the P38 using both 50s and canon albeit a very long pass.

Next time I will try it with just 50s.

[-ammo-]

Even so, if I put three 20mm rounds in your wing it should come off.

That happens now!

Speaking of anomalies, Bob Johnson RTB'd a P-47 with no less than 20 20mm strikes and many more 7.62 strikes.  Granted, the AC was a write off

[LilMak]

Even so, if I put three 20mm rounds in your wing it should come off.

It does. And it certainly has little to do with convergence which is understandable with explosive ammunition. I always love when people show a 20mm next to a .50 and that's a great comparison if the standard gun package on American planes was one for one (1 fifty for one 20mm). But American planes with the 6 gun pack throw out 3-5 of those rounds for every one 20mm shell on an aircraft equipped with a pair of 20mm.. So line up 3-5 .50s next to that 20 and then do a size comparison. My arguement has and continues to be that .50s are pretty close to perfect when the bad guy flies through a hose of them at convergence. Where the problem lies is when you score hits at greater distances and nothing seems to happen. Now I don't expect the target to blow into tiny bits but I also don't expect it to fly away with no damage simply because of the wider dispersement of ammunition. A hit is a hit and a Browning WILL damage something more often than it wont. This is a reflection of the damage model which heavily favors cannon because they lose very little effect as long as they hit. Since damage is cumulative for each part of the aircraft to lose pieces in game, you might hit the target with 10+ rounds of .50 and do nothing while a one or two 20 strikes will either kill or cripple the same target. Our cartoon aircraft simply don't have enough parts on them for the 50 to hit and that is why there is a problem.

[Wiley]

Since damage is cumulative for each part of the aircraft to lose pieces in game, you might hit the target with 10+ rounds of .50 and do nothing while a one or two 20 strikes will either kill or cripple the same target. Our cartoon aircraft simply don't have enough parts on them for the 50 to hit and that is why there is a problem.

You're mostly right, the only quibble I'd make is, a .50 only has its kinetic energy available to cause damage with, and at 700 yards the KE on a .50 is significantly less than a .50 at 200 or closer.

Wiley.

[Randy1]

Last night I did take out the radar with one pass with the P38 using both 50s and canon albeit a very long pass.

Next time I will try it with just 50s.

I ran a staged mission.  I could not take down the radar with a P47 eight gun package or the P38 with 50 cal only.    Not saying it can't be done, just saying.

Did kill it with a P38 using 50s and canon.

[bustr]

LOL!!! Must've been a winter storm since 2007 or whenever I started this game. 50s have been underpowered the whole time.

While the "effective kill range" may be less than 400 yards, the effective range of a M2 Browning easily doubles that. Watching a plane at 600yards turn white with hit sprites and fly away without so much as a leak is an instult to Mr. Browning and one of the most legendary weapons ever fielded.

Then the 8th AAF insulted Mr. Browning long before you or I were born.

This is their years of assessment from after action reports and review of gun cam footage along with testing from Aberdeen. Your best argument in this post has to do with the damage modeling Hitech chose to go with at longer ranges. His data comes from the 8th AAF's exhaustive research into the results of the AN\M2 in combat. Back then they had a life and death vested interest to know exactly what was happening with those rounds. After all, they were fighting an air war with them as their primary fighter gun.

We both know 1200ft and closer in the game works just like it worked in real life for the same physical reasons. And Hitech models in the physics that existed 70 years ago as it does today. Your argument over the .50 cal always reaches this point where you use other posters to hide behind while indirectly calling Hitech names for not programing from your personal position as an expert on the M2. So indirectly you are also saying the 8th AAF's data and Aberdeen's research from the war is bubcuss because you have more recently made use of an M2.

Hitech sir, please review your modeling of aircraft damage by the AN\M2 beyond 1200ft to the maximum line of sight range you have coded for Lil'Mak. He is a real world expert on the function and firing of the M2 and disagrees with your results. I'm sure upon request he will provide all of his current pertinent experiential data to help update the 70 year old 8th AAF and Aberdeen proving grounds data you currently have on file at HTC. As we both know, only data can be entered into a programming function. 

[Lusche]

I ran a staged mission.  I could not take down the radar with a P47 eight gun package or the P38 with 50 cal only.    Not saying it can't be done, just saying.

Did kill it with a P38 using 50s and canon.

That may be because of the staged mission settings perhaps. Or you're not hitting the base of the radar tower directly with the .50 cal, cannon only needs close proximity hits.
Simply use the offline mode, disable "protect objects" under arena flags in arena settings and have at it

A radar tower takes 313lb of damage for destruction. That's equivalent to 267 rounds of 0.50 or 78 rounds of 20mm Hispano. With 8x50cal, it just takes a 2 second burst to pop radar, ords, barracks...

P-47D40, 8x50cal, ~ 390 mph.



About 2 seconds after the trigger was pulled the first bullets impact, another 2 seconds after the first hits the radar is down:


Actual number of rounds spent: 344.

[LilMak]

Then the 8th AAF insulted Mr. Browning long before you or I were born.

This is their years of assessment from after action reports and review of gun cam footage along with testing from Aberdeen. Your best argument in this post has to do with the damage modeling Hitech chose to go with at longer ranges. His data comes from the 8th AAF's exhaustive research into the results of the AN\M2 in combat. Back then they had a life and death vested interest to know exactly what was happening with those rounds. After all, they were fighting an air war with them as their primary fighter gun.

We both know 1200ft and closer in the game works just like it worked in real life for the same physical reasons. And Hitech models in the physics that existed 70 years ago as it does today. Your argument over the .50 cal always reaches this point where you use other posters to hide behind while indirectly calling Hitech names for not programing from your personal position as an expert on the M2. So indirectly you are also saying the 8th AAF's data and Aberdeen's research from the war is bubcuss because you have more recently made use of an M2.

Hitech sir, please review your modeling of aircraft damage by the AN\M2 beyond 1200ft to the maximum line of sight range you have coded for Lil'Mak. He is a real world expert on the function and firing of the M2 and disagrees with your results. I'm sure upon request he will provide all of his current pertinent experiential data to help update the 70 year old 8th AAF and Aberdeen proving grounds data you currently have on file at HTC. As we both know, only data can be entered into a programming function. 

So in Aberdeen they proved that .50s do zero damage beyond 1200ft and aircraft only receive damage to the following parts in the following fashion...
Wings that only break at the roots and tips. Ailerons only fall off. Flaps break off but mysteriously the plane behaves as if the flap is still there and stuck in whatever position it was in when it got shot. Horizontal tail surfaces only break at one point. Langing gear, when hit, only fall off. Eninges only leak or have sudden stoppages when hit. Drop tanks and ord are invisible to bullets of any kind. Pilots all have the same threshold for pain before they pass out.

And the folks at Aberdeen also proved planes are completely hollow except for those parts HT has deemed breakable. There are no cables, pulleys, chains, hinges, oxygen tanks, turbochargers, wires, radios, guages, coolant lines, tires, gear doors, or anything of the sort and, even if there were, a half inch round that has an overall range of 4 miles would not effect any of those parts at distances greater than 600 yards.

I really need to read that report. Sounds facinating.

[ReVo]

So in Aberdeen they proved that .50s do zero damage beyond 1200ft and aircraft only receive damage to the following parts in the following fashion...
Wings that only break at the roots and tips. Ailerons only fall off. Flaps break off but mysteriously the plane behaves as if the flap is still there and stuck in whatever position it was in when it got shot. Horizontal tail surfaces only break at one point. Langing gear, when hit, only fall off. Eninges only leak or have sudden stoppages when hit. Drop tanks and ord are invisible to bullets of any kind. Pilots all have the same threshold for pain before they pass out.

And the folks at Aberdeen also proved planes are completely hollow except for those parts HT has deemed breakable. There are no cables, pulleys, chains, hinges, oxygen tanks, turbochargers, wires, radios, guages, coolant lines, tires, gear doors, or anything of the sort and, even if there were, a half inch round that has an overall range of 4 miles would not effect any of those parts at distances greater than 600 yards.

I really need to read that report. Sounds facinating.

So what you're complaining about really is the lack of a more detailed damage model? Now we have something I can support.

[Tinkles]

So what you're complaining about really is the lack of a more detailed damage model? Now we have something I can support.

While I understand where you and LilMak are coming from in terms of the damage model. I think the reason made the effective range lower in distance is the fact that we can easily learn how to 'reach out' to other people out of their effective ranges. (Thinking of 303 and 30mm users off the bat). So instead of opening up at 800 yards, it could easily be 1500 or even 2k yards.  Scary.

Not only that you miss, and the system would still have to track those rounds for 2000 yards (or more) if we will all-out realistic.

I think the range they are at is fine, in balancing the would be abusers, who would shoot out loooong ranges just to get a few pings.  (Imagine m16s if I could reach out to you at 2000 yards + ?)


Again, I've gotten kills at 1200 yards before with 50 cals in both the m16 and various planes that use the 50.cal .  I think I might make an offline film of my shooting and post it here.

[LCADolby]

You guys will have a flap about anything.

[ReVo]

You guys will have a flap about anything.

Pot calling the kettle black much? 

[LCADolby]