Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?

[Tank-Ace]

See Rule #4

[LCADolby]

See Rule #4

[danny76]

See Rule #4

[danny76]

See Rule #4

[Tank-Ace]

See Rule #4

[danny76]

See Rule #4

[Tank-Ace]

See Rule #4

[Brooke]

Tackling LW bombers at 25k with escort is never going to be 'fun', when its the high point of the scenario.

You mean including 8th AF scenarios?  Most people love that (as judged by comments and polls).

[Tank-Ace]

You mean including 8th AF scenarios?  Most people love that (as judged by comments and polls).

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No, not including 8th AF scenarios. Those are an exception, since the whole thing is designed around bomber interception. And besides, the 109's are usually tasked with stripping escorts, not dealing with the imperfect results of those attempts, so I usually get a pass on hitting escorted bombers.

[Brooke]

From this, its evident that the CM team made absolutely zero efforts to explore options for a TBD substitute, and decided to go with the TBM, which is known to be just a horrible substitute for the TBD.

Not exactly.

It is true that the TBM is a much better plane than the TBD.  For that reason, and because Coral Sea and Midway are major WWII battles and the subject of scenarios, the TBD is one of the top 5 planes I'd like to see added to the plane set.

It is also true that the B5N is a better fit in terms of airspeed.

Payload doesn't matter because all US torpedo bombers in Coral Sea and Midway scenarios use torpedoes.

However, the B5N is, I suspect, less sturdy than the TBD, has no forward-firing gun at all, and would have Japanese skin in the scenarios (because of how skins are implemented on the servers).  So, immersion of having a bunch of Japanese-marked torpedo bombers has to be considered, along with those other factors.

Also, we have tested TBM's in several runnings of Coral Sea, and it is not unbalancing at all.  In those runnings, the IJN side has done about as well as the US side.  What ends up mattering is whether or not there is CAP and, if so, whether or not there is strong escort.  If there is CAP and not strong-enough escort, the TBM's get annihilated just like B5N's do.  It boils down to the fact that, whether you are in a TBM, B5N, or TBD, you are approaching for a considerable distance on the deck at low speed, so top speed of the plane ends up not mattering much in actual runnings of the setup.

So, some of your points are correct, and are not a surprise to or ignored by the CM team, but you are missing some other points that we need to consider.  Your preference on which set of things is more important isn't wrong -- but it is your preference, that one set outweighs the other.

HTC will add the TBD at some point, I bet, and we won't have to pick.

[perdue3]

See Rule #4

[LCADolby]

I did a TDI which had the TBM as a substitute, it was the biggest unbalanced pile of tripe I have ever flown in in 6 years of AcesHigh.


If you think it's not unbalanced, you only listened to the guys flying allied.

[ROC]

You know damn well I meant late war.

Wow, no pleasing you at all is there, now it's also my fault you didn't make yourself clear.  Ok, I'll try and do better.

Tackling LW bombers at 25k with escort is never going to be 'fun', when its the high point of the scenario.

Umm..

No, not including 8th AF scenarios. Those are an exception, since the whole thing is designed around bomber interception

Wait, you said "Never..when it's the high point of the scenario"  except....when it is exactly the high point of the scenario. Never actually means, well, never.
Is this one of those times when I should have known what you meant?  So just for clarification so I can make a strong attempt at knowing what you meant, when you say never, should I be reading Never, Most of the time, or Some of the time?  I mean, since I should know damn well by now what you meant, I honestly feel I should try to clarify it.  I'm trying hard to do what you think I should do, although I suppose you will find some fault with my effort.  

Tank, heads up, it might not have occurred to you that you may be correct in your plane performance comparisons, yet the planes were chosen specifically for those reasons and your "facts" actually change nothing.  Just because you don't know why something was picked does not mean it was wrong.  That is your opinion.  Clearly, we chose planes for a reason, not every reason is going to be explained to you.  Sometimes, it's part of the design balance and a deliberate obstacle to be climbed over.  Whether or not you like it is up to you to deal with, but not liking something does not make an opinion a fact.

Anyway, nice break from reality, got work to do and things to finish up.  This was entertaining as usual    Don't worry Tank, I'm not mad, bitter or irritated in the least, I'm actually having a great time 


 

[kilo2]

Not exactly.

It is true that the TBM is a much better plane than the TBD.  For that reason, and because Coral Sea and Midway are major WWII battles and the subject of scenarios, the TBD is one of the top 5 planes I'd like to see added to the plane set.

It is also true that the B5N is a better fit in terms of airspeed.

Payload doesn't matter because all US torpedo bombers in Coral Sea and Midway scenarios use torpedoes.

However, the B5N is, I suspect, less sturdy than the TBD, has no forward-firing gun at all, and would have Japanese skin in the scenarios (because of how skins are implemented on the servers).  So, immersion of having a bunch of Japanese-marked torpedo bombers has to be considered, along with those other factors.

Also, we have tested TBM's in several runnings of Coral Sea, and it is not unbalancing at all.  In those runnings, the IJN side has done about as well as the US side.  What ends up mattering is whether or not there is CAP and, if so, whether or not there is strong escort.  If there is CAP and not strong-enough escort, the TBM's get annihilated just like B5N's do.  It boils down to the fact that, whether you are in a TBM, B5N, or TBD, you are approaching for a considerable distance on the deck at low speed, so top speed of the plane ends up not mattering much in actual runnings of the setup.

So, some of your points are correct, and are not a surprise to or ignored by the CM team, but you are missing some other points that we need to consider.  Your preference on which set of things is more important isn't wrong -- but it is your preference, that one set outweighs the other.

HTC will add the TBD at some point, I bet, and we won't have to pick.

I-16 subbing for G.50 has happened. 110-C for KI-45 has happened. Did that hurt immersion?

There is more of course. For some reason TBM is immune to being switched out for something closer to a TBD.

1941-1945 Pacific it is going to have a TBM. Just say that from now on.

[Ruah]

Just want to add that the TBM thing is a major minus in PTO scenarios -

an A6M cannot really run down a TBM, it's rear guns will eat a Zero alive, and is made of solid steel and is really hard to kill - the difference between a TBD and a TBM-3 (45 edition) is massive . . and I cannot count how many times I have had to give up chasing one because I could never catch it even with alt andd a jump, or, my favorite, chasing a TBM for 2 sectors (after ignoring orders to break off) and getting picked off by 2 F4Fs that probably flew 3 sectors to save the TBM. . . TBMs alone, more then anything else, is the most imbalanced thing ever.  A 1945 plane has no problems against any early war zero. . .I have experienced this firsthand in every early/mid war PTO scenario when frankly the Zeros killed a LOT of TBDs and never had any problems killing them during the war.

I have heard many COs, not just mine, call off an obvious pick on TBMs because they know that with a short dive, all the fighter will be stretched out, on the deck, with little or no TBM kills.  I have seen purposeful strategies that use low TBMs as bait to lure Zeros down knowing they cannot be caught.  Despite what anyone says, TBMs are PTO breaking.

as for the rest of it, seems like the same issues are brought up over and over, people get banned, people are told to back off, people are told that their opinions don't matter - but really - these issues are glaring and perhaps it would be nice to see some recognition of these issues.