A close call for some Lanc's.

[Hajo]

<S> D. 

No I believe that was Nef's group that hit A109.  I had the unenviable task of getting my heavy crates 165 miles behind enemy lines - all the way from Munster to the Antwerp City Strats - deliver our pain - and try to make it back.

Anyone but a blind man looking at the objectives for frame 1 would have seen that due to the proximity of targets, that strikes from both sides would likely cross paths.  I spent hours on JG11's Attack plan.  I sweated this mission out...even attempted to sacrifice the neighbors cat...

Why do you think I chose 20K for cruising alt?  For just that reason - so we would be seen as 'no threat' to enemy strikes crossing our path...

...all for nothing. 

Blown by ignorance.

Stampf....you couldn't have planned any better.  In that situation or even before, if engaged a command would be given and 5 of us would jettison ord to protect our squadron and not attack the enemy bombers.  The later command was given on the fly.  Well thought out to say the least. And that was on the fly during the heat of battle.  Your agonizing brought the majority of us home in good order, considering the position we were in.  Impossible imho in that situation.

[Stampf]

Stampf....you couldn't have planned any better.  In that situation or even before, if engaged a command would be given and 5 of us would jettison ord to protect our squadron and not attack the enemy bombers.  The later command was given on the fly.  Well thought out to say the least. And that was on the fly during the heat of battle.  Your agonizing brought the majority of us home in good order, considering the position we were in.  Impossible imho in that situation.

Thank you very much, Hajo.  It is appreciated very much by me.  I really could have choked kittens when I saw those idiots attack.  I'll know better next time.

There is something wrong with your sig, Sir. 

[Kenne]

do you really wish to get into a pissing contest?
because I can quote chapter and verse on JG11.

I wish that was the case, Nate.  "We're going to make one pass through the Lancs." - Fish42 - Range Vox.  After I repeatedly ordered all ships to let them go.  As soon as you guys went in...the Tempests came down to protect the Lancs.

Cost me 2 men and cost the Axis 10,000 lbs of jettisoned ords.

JG54 - The squad that always has so many suggestions to improve the event...You guys better look within first.

I've had horrible escorts before...but last night was one for the books.

[USRanger]

Ya lost me there Kenne.

 

[Nefarious]

Did you guys attack A109.  Whoever did even shot up the vegetable patch and the garbage bins.  Wasn't anything left there without a hole in it.
<S> Stampf

That was the CHAWKS and the 412th FNVG. The base was not defended and it allowed us to strafe and completely flatten it.

[Dantoo]

That was the CHAWKS and the 412th FNVG. The base was not defended and it allowed us to strafe and completely flatten it.

I have never, ever, in any special event of any kind, seen a base left so wasted.  You even shot your initials into the concrete.   

[Ratsy]

I have never, ever, in any special event of any kind, seen a base left so wasted.  You even shot your initials into the concrete.   

Jeez - I attacked three times and watched my target blow up before I could drop.  I think I finally hit a fuel bunker.  It was like trying to find a Happy Hour parking spot at Hooter's.

Needless to say, the skies were crowded.  We were also detected by an outbound allied strike on our run in.  I have to say our strike package maintained great discipline.  You could sure feel the strain.   

Not sure we need to publicly call out a squadron though, with all due respect to Stampf.  I've seen mistakes and questionable behavior from just about every squadron in FSO.  It is usually taken care of through PM's, however.  I think that gets the same results.

Have a mission - stick with the mission - improvise only when you are MADE to.  That's a pretty good formula, I think.  Especially if every participant does it.   

Peace - Love - Rock and Roll

[Bannor]

I have never, ever, in any special event of any kind, seen a base left so wasted.  You even shot your initials into the concrete.   

I actually landed there to use your latrine...had some bad sauerkraut.  No toilet paper so I had to drag my butt in the grass! 

[Shifty]

No toilet paper so I had to drag my butt in the grass! 

Funny you should say that. A couple of times while in the USAF we went TDY to the Luftwaffe base at Jever. The toilet paper in the barracks was wax paper without the wax. We didn't know if that was the standard in Germany or if they just put it out special for us and the RAF squadrons that were TDY there. 

[Nathan60]

I wish that was the case, Nate.  "We're going to make one pass through the Lancs." - Fish42 - Range Vox.  After I repeatedly ordered all ships to let them go.  As soon as you guys went in...the Tempests came down to protect the Lancs.

Cost me 2 men and cost the Axis 10,000 lbs of jettisoned ords.

JG54 - The squad that always has so many suggestions to improve the event...You guys better look within first.

I've had horrible escorts before...but last night was one for the books.

One pass is not going after them, I personally barley moved my stick to take a passing shot as I was going through had we gone around and avoided them entirely you woulda had even less escort as we would a been even further away, as it is after we went though I look back to see Beardawg has 2 fighters on him and I have one after me aswell, that's when our two groups got separated. One pass as we went by was the call on JG54 vox you can take what I am saying here or you can't either way you can take your self righteousness and well.. I don't have to tell ya what to do with it you've probably heard it before.

[TequilaChaser]

I actually landed there to use your latrine...had some bad sauerkraut.  No toilet paper so I had to drag my butt in the grass! 

ROTFL...

Great 1st post, Ratsy!  I'd have to agree, pm is better than public, but do understand Stampf's agony over the situation..

Was a fun frame....<§> to all participants!

TC

[tmetal]

Unfortunately, I wasn't there so all I have to go on is screenshots, after action reports from squadies and the info posted here.

Stampf, by the screen shots ELD66 has posted on this thread you brought your Jabo group to at least 1k distance from the bombers, do you seriously think that any escort force would have let you do this without interception of some level?  As Dantoo posted: "I was in the Tempests above the Lancs when the "190s" call came in.  We moved straight away to get into the slot between the two groups and immediately came down on the 190s when one of the Lancs was attacked (by a 109)." It seems that your 190s are what initially called down the Tempest escort, not JG54's 109's.  Granted Dantoo also states: "As soon as I saw the 190s were F8s and carrying bombs with a clear intention to avoid contact I called a knock it off and moved straight back to the Lancs." but either his call to knock off happened after your two pilots got shot down or some of Dantoo's pilots didn't heed the call; either way your attempt to lay the loss of your two pilots entirely at JG54's feet is flimsy at best.

Sure, JG54 could have not attacked the lanc's as they flew threw thier formation, and could have instead flown a course to avoid the bombers altogether. Unfortunately you still came close enough to the bombers to call down the escort to have a look which would have likely resulted in the same outcome of your two lost pilots.  As it happened, JG54 also made a judgement call to follow JG11's flight path in order to minimize the seperation between the two squads (a judgement call that most squads would also probably make) and this caused the pass through the bombers.  JG11 was flight lead, and should bear some responsability for the flight path chosen. You could have chosen to fly a path that would have avoided the lanc's just as easily as JG54 could have.

A few different decisions made by a number of different people could have resulted in a different and more satisfying outcome for both JG54 and JG11; but labeling a squad as idiots and requesting that they shoot themselves next time is uncalled for and over the top. how long do you expect any squads will want to work with JG11 if this kind of tantrum is what they can expect from you when you don't like how the night's events turned out? You ask JG54 to look within; perhaps you should do so as well.

[Shifty]

Unfortunately, I wasn't there so all I have to go on is screenshots, after action reports from squadies and the info posted here.

I was there. Stampf's version is correct as backed up by the flight lead on the Tempest. I heard Fish42 call a pass on the Lancs I heard Stampf call him off. Dantoo saw JG-54 make a run on the Lancs and engaged the 190s as now there was a threat to the guys he was escorting. The irony you're missing is that JG-54 was our escort. If they were going to shoot at anybody it should have been the Tempest not the Lancs. How could you not avoid the Lancs in 109s anyway? We were in heavy 190F8s and had no problem steering clear of them. Fact is the JG-54 flight lead saw what he thought was a quick way to get some cheap kills. No thought of the mission or how it would affect the frame. It could very easily spiraled out of control with both sides fully engaging right there and completely ruining the night for guys on both sides who we flying CAP over targets for both sides. Luckily there were guys like Stampf on the Axis side and Dantoo on the Allied side to keep things in check and herd everyone past the BS caused by your squadron.

Look at the logs, the JG-54 flight lead downed two Lancs. Another JG-54 pilot was awarded an asst on one of them. A third JG-54 pilot admitted firing on the Lancs in a post in this thread. That is at least three of your guys attacking and firing on bombers when they should be protecting the squad they're escorting. Not starting a gun fight half way to the target. A lot of people put a lot of work into these things to make them successful and it only takes a couple of loose cannons to ruin the frame for others. So quit trying to paint Stampf as the bad guy here. Instead of worrying about who wants to fly with JG-11 in the future you should wonder how long people are going to want to fly with you guys when you pull stunts like that.

[Slash27]

I got lost and couldn't find my squad for 30 minutes if that makes anyone feel better.

[Larry]

I got lost and couldn't find my squad for 30 minutes if that makes anyone feel better.

Slash how many times do I have to tell you to hold your flight lead's hand at all times, and always look both ways before crossing an enemy formation!