72-75inches Pony

[shift8]

In mid 1944 72" was standardized for P-51s operating in the Eighth Air Force. I would love to have one in game even if it had to be a perk ride.  

This would create a Mustang that does about 380mph on the deck and climbs a little over 4000fpm. Presumably turn would improve as well, since for no added weight HP would increase from 1720bhp to around 1900bhp.

[-ammo-]

I would sure like to see some documentation to back that up...

[shift8]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-climb-blue.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/75inch-clearance-v-1650-7.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/ppf-20june44.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/ppf-29april44.jpg

"On 29 March 1944 the Commanding General, Army Air Forces authorized the procurement of the necessary parts to modify all P-38, P-47 and P-51 airplanes in the United Kingdom for the use of Grade 150 fuel, subject to the relevant engines being cleared to use the fuel. 1 2   During March & April 1944 flight tests were conducted at Wright Field on the P-51B-15 airplane, AAF No. 43-24777, using 44-1 fuel, at the request of the Power Plant Laboratory, Engineering Division. 3   These tests were made to determine the performance of the airplane at the higher powers allowable with 44-1 fuel as compared with the performance at powers allowable for standard aviation fuel. Parallel tests were conducted by Proving Ground Command at Eglin Field, Florida on P-51B airplanes, AAF Nos. 43-24755, 43-24757, and 43-24775. The Power Plant Laboratory concluded in a 19 April 1944 memorandum report that the "Packard built Rolls-Royce V-1650-7 engine will satisfactorily comply with a 75 In. Hg manifold pressure war emergency rating with Grade 44-1 fuel". 4   As a result of the engine clearance and airplane trials the P-51-B airplane was cleared for operation at 75" Hg by late April. 5   The modifications required to the P-51 to use the 150 grade fuel were: modify manifold pressure regulator, modify supercharger volute drain valve, install new type induction center manifold extension gland seals, use of Lodge RS5/5 or KLG RC5/3 spark plugs, installation of bulged exhaust stacks, and reset supercharger aneroid switch. 6   By June 1944, final release on Project P.P.F. had been made approving 75" manifold pressure for the P-51 (both the 1650-3 and 1650-7 engines), as well as increased powers for the P-38 and P-47. 7

Deliveries of Grade 100/150 aviation fuel to Eighth Air Force fighter airfields commenced in June 1944. 8 9 10  This coincidentally occured about the same time as the introduction of the P-51D into service.   Even though the USAAF had cleared the P-51 for 75" Hg., the Eighth Air Force chose 72" Hg as the P-51's War Emergency Rating. 11 12   Apparently there is more to the story, however, as Encounter Reports demonstrate that 75" Hg was used operationally. 13 14

By January 1945, fourteen of the Eighth Air Force's fifteen Fighter Groups were operating Mustangs, the sole holdout being the 56th FG in P-47's. Maintenance difficulties with spark plug fouling led to the decision to convert all fighter groups to 100/150 grade fuel reformulated with increased levels of ethylene dibromide (1.5T). Deliveries of PEP, as the new 100/150 blend was called, began to be issued to all fighter groups in February 1945. The use of PEP, however, cooroded the valve seats of the V-1650 at an unacceptable level. Consequently, the standard 100/150 (1T) grade fuel was reverted to by the end of March 1945. 15 16   The Eighth Air Force also had hoped to supply the 352nd and 361st Fighter Groups based on the continent with 100/150 grade fuel. This was deemed impractical from a logistical viewpoint, although admittedly such difficulties did not prevent the RAF's 2nd TAF from being supplied with 100/150 grade fuel. 17"

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

[shift8]

Successful service tests led in May 1944 to the Eighth Air Force Fighter Command requesting that it "be supplied immediately with grade 150 aviation fuel for use in P-47, P-51 and P-38 planes". 25   Deliveries of Grade 100/150 aviation fuel to AAF Stations commenced within a week of the landings in France. 26   27   The change over to 150 grade fuel necessitated the resetting of all aneroid switches on the P-51s. 28 

By early July 1944 the 8th AF fighter aircraft were operating at the following power settings: 29   30


150 grade fuel continued to be used by 8th AF units through 1944. 31    The WER engine limitation for the P-51 continued to be 72" Hg. 32    Eighth Air Force Fighter Groups converted to a new blend of 150 grade fuel, with increased amounts of ethylene dibromide (1½ T) in early 1945. 33    P.E.P, as the new fuel was called, was tried in order to remedy lead fouling of spark plugs.    While spark plug fouling was eliminated, PEP was found to have an undesirable effect on valve seats. As a result of excessive maintenance required on the V-1650 engines, General Doolittle of the Eighth Air Force decided in late March 1945 to revert to the normal 100/150 (1 T) grade fuel. 34

Technical Operations, Eighth Air Force issued a 4 April 1945 memorandum in which 100/150 grade fuel experience in the Eighth Air Force was summarized. It is reproduced in full below:

            1.   The following is a summary of 100/150 grade fuel experience in Eighth Air Force.
            2.   a.   This fuel was first service tested by Technical Operations Section, this headquarters, in October 1943, said service test lasting through until March 1944, at which time it was recommended that if extra performance from P-38, P-47 and P-51 aircraft was desired it could be secured by the use of this fuel. It was pointed out at that time that the only apparent deleterious effect of this fuel on any one of the three types was the extra lead fouling of spark plugs.

                  b.   A decision was made in May 1944 to have all fighter units supplied with this fuel no later than 1 June. As of that date operations with this fuel continued until approximately 1 February 1945 when all fighter units switched to “Pep” (100/150 plus 1.5 T’s ethylene dibromide). As of 1 April 1945 all units switched back to 100/150 fuel containing 1.0 T ethylene dibromide.

            3.   At the time the 150 grade fuel was first used all three fighter types listed above were in operational use by this Air Force. Shortly after June 1 P-38 units were re-equipped with P-51 type aircraft so that experience with 150 grade fuel in P-38 aircraft is limited. Gradually, conversion of P-47 outfits to P-51’s took place during the Summer and Fall of 1944, and as of approximately 1 November only one P-47 group remained in this Air Force.

quoted from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

[BnZs]

Having some kind of USAAF perk plane would be nice...I used to think that if the P47M was ever modeled it would probably be perked, but it is ENY 10.

There was once a "next plane" poll that had the P-51H on it, or so I hear.

[caldera]

In mid 1944 72" was standardized for P-51s operating in the Eighth Air Force. I would love to have one in game even if it had to be a perk ride.  

This would create a Mustang that does about 380mph on the deck and climbs a little over 4000fpm. Presumably turn would improve as well, since for no added weight HP would increase from 1720bhp to around 1900bhp.

Given the already overwhelming popularity of the P-51D as currently modeled, you see that as a good thing?  We could rename the game "P-51Ds High".


-1

[shift8]

As its currently stands, you may as well name the game "Aces High Spit XIV"  so that logic doesn't hold up.

It could always have low ENY or be perk. Seeing as it entered service well before the 109K or 190D, or La7. it really isnt all the crazy to ask for. TBH, it makes more sense to make this the default setting for the P-51D since the plane entered service right as this boost rating was made standard. But that's not what I'm asking for.

You could even choose to model it as a type or ord, so that it could be disabled through bombing etc. It would be easy to implement relatively speaking, as no new 3d model is required, and the only changes to the existing FM would be max power/thrust and corresponding changes to the supercharger aneroid settings.

[caldera]

As its currently stands, you may as well name the game "Aces High Spit XIV"  so that logic doesn't hold up.

It could always have low ENY or be perk. Seeing as it entered service well before the 109K or 190D, or La7. it really isnt all the crazy to ask for. TBH, it makes more sense to make this the default setting for the P-51D since the plane entered service right as this boost rating was made standard. But that's not what I'm asking for.

You could even choose to model it as a type or ord, so that it could be disabled through bombing etc. It would be easy to implement relatively speaking, as no new 3d model is required, and the only changes to the existing FM would be max power/thrust and corresponding changes to the supercharger aneroid settings.

I say it does.


Tour 175

#1 Fighter:  P-51D  (13,733 kills - 10935 deaths)

#2 Fighter:  La-7  (7819 kills - 5829 deaths)

#32 Fighter:  Spit XIV  (1646 kills - 1847 deaths)

[shift8]

That hardly proves anything. Spitfires attract alot of new sticks who don't know what they are doing. If you look at more of the campaigns, you will probably find all sorts of different stats for different planes at different times.

It is a fact that the XIV is much more agile than competitors in its speed class, has a ROC to match or exceed the same competition, and is just as fast or nearly as fast down low, and faster up high than the same competition. Given that it possesses equal climb and speed to its equivalents in game, and is FAR more agile, perhaps by your reasoning we should remove the spit XIV? If it does badly in KDR this is the result of poor piloting/aggressive flying-----as it is demonstrably and obviously the superior performer by far.

Furthermore, a airplane being good should not preclude its use in a sim, this is not about balance it is about historical authenticity. If the plane is really good, then it can be perked, like the F4U-4, or 262. A plane should not be nerfed or excluded just because it is good.

[caldera]

That hardly proves anything. Spitfires attract alot of new sticks who don't know what they are doing. If you look at more of the campaigns, you will probably find all sorts of different stats for different planes at different times.

It is a fact that the XIV is much more agile than competitors in its speed class, has a ROC to match or exceed the same competition, and is just as fast or nearly as fast down low, and faster up high than the same competition.

Furthermore, a airplane being good should not preclude its use in a sim, this is not about balance it is about historical authenticity. If the plane is really good, then it can be perked, like the F4U-4, or 262. A plane should not be nerfed or excluded just because it is good.

If you look, you will find that each and every tour (going back many years) has been totally dominated by the P-51D.  Many times having more kills than the #2 and #3 fighters combined.

Despite being flown by the teeming masses of skilless noobs, it does quite well for itself.   If the Spit XIV were so good, why doesn't it get used?   If the P-51D was modeled to perform like the P-40, you can be assured that all the "history buffs" that fly it wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.  It is easy mode and doesn't need to be made any easier.

[Xavier]

In mid 1944 72" was standardized for P-51s operating in the Eighth Air Force. I would love to have one in game even if it had to be a perk ride.  

This would create a Mustang that does about 380mph on the deck and climbs a little over 4000fpm. Presumably turn would improve as well, since for no added weight HP would increase from 1720bhp to around 1900bhp.

I couldn't help but notice that in your very first (and only) posts you only asked for two things: making the P-51D faster and the Bf-109K4 slower.

 

[shift8]

Its popularity does not make it good. Having large numbers of pilots will inevitably result in large numbers of kills. Lots of people fly planes in Aces High just because they like them. As for the spit, it is routinely recommended to new pilots because of how easy to fly and OP it is. A casual reading of any of the spitfire guides

Easy mode it is not. I see far more 109s, spits, F4U's, and 190s than ponies in the main arena. The 51 in game is faster than most, but the 190D, 109K, and La-7 can all run it down, and 2 of those planes can force a dogfight where the mustang is at a decided disadvantage, since both the La7 and 109K can out climb and out turn it.

Once again though, being good or being better does not matter. What matters is whether or not it existed. It did, can came into service in this configuration far before the La7, Dora, or 109k. And once again, if it is considered too OP it could also be perked like the F4U-4, or do you want than plane removed as well?

[Lusche]

Its popularity does not make it good. Having large numbers of pilots will inevitably result in large numbers of kills. Lots of people fly planes in Aces High just because they like them. As for the spit, it is routinely recommended to new pilots because of how easy to fly and OP it is. A casual reading of any of the spitfire guides

The P-51 not only has the most raw numebr of kills every tour, it also has a very high K/D despite being the staple of the masses:



X axis: K/D, y axis 'usage' (k+d). air to air combat data exclusively.

[shift8]

I couldn't help but notice that in your very first (and only) posts you only asked for two things: making the P-51D faster and the Bf-109K4 slower.

 

Not important if both things are true. I am sure other planes deserve changes as well. The K4 appears to be over-modeled and the P-51D is not getting a boost setting that it received in real life. In the interest of historical fairness, those things should be changed IMO. I have no ulterior motive here, and implying that I do does not refute what I am asking for. Furthermore, these threads are separate and should remain so, so that they can be debated independently and the issues will not become clouded.

[caldera]

Its popularity does not make it good. Having large numbers of pilots will inevitably result in large numbers of kills. Lots of people fly planes in Aces High just because they like them. As for the spit, it is routinely recommended to new pilots because of how easy to fly and OP it is. A casual reading of any of the spitfire guides

Easy mode it is not. I see far more 109s, spits, F4U's, and 190s than ponies in the main arena. The 51 in game is faster than most, but the 190D, 109K, and La-7 can all run it down, and 2 of those planes can force a dogfight where the mustang is at a decided disadvantage, since both the La7 and 109K can out climb and out turn it.

Once again though, being good or being better does not matter. What matters is whether or not it existed. It did, can came into service in this configuration far before the La7, Dora, or 109k. And once again, if it is considered too OP it could also be perked like the F4U-4, or do you want than plane removed as well?

All those 109s, Spits, F4Us and 190s must really suck, because the P-51s far outnumber them all in the stats.   And it is easy mode.  That is the main reason for it's popularity, whether you will admit it or not.