Author Topic: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei  (Read 4032 times)

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2015, 03:59:58 AM »
Obviously a sound card issue.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2015, 09:08:03 AM »
In most cases the shorter versions of a plane need a bigger fin, A318 for example have a bigger fin than the bigger brothers. Short plane means less stability and thus need a larger fin. I cannot see that the ATR-72 has a undersized fin or rudder. Max demonstrated cross wind on dry runway its 35 kt for the ATR 72-600 and that indicate that it has a very good rudder.
:airplane: The only reason for the rudder is to "overcome the adverse yaw, created by the down turned aileron when making a turn". That is the basic reason for a rudder, reason, simply put, if you start a left turn, the nose of the aircraft, without the use of rudder, will turn right first and only then will it come back to left as you want! If climbing, which these guys were doing at the time, non use of the rudder would increase the drag on the aircraft because it is now slipping in the turn, which also raises the stalling speed to a higher than normal value, which could have caused the left turn which this aircraft did prior to losing control alto gather.  Now there are other functions for the rudder in addition to that, one being, overcoming the adverse yaw created by a failed engine and the torque and "P" factor now created by the still operating good engine! Last, but not least, controlling yaw about the vertical axis of the aircraft in all flight realms.
When teaching basic flight instructions to students, one good lesson for them is to teach them to "push the high rudder pedal to correct the low wing condition, if one, example, in a stall, if the aircraft drops off into a low left wing down conf, then use the right rudder to correct the low wing condition, of course using aileron to assist you in getting back to wings level attitude. Why is that important, because the stalling speed of the aircraft is higher in a turn than in level flight, so no matter what is happening, you want to maintain a wings level attitude until you regain flying speed. And to, if you don't get the nose down or power restored, you are just going to stall again. Also, when stalling an aircraft, your nose is going to be pointing down, but in a wings level attitude, you will regain flying speed much quicker than in a turn!.
Again I make the argument that if the ATR 72 had a larger rudder, then it could operate at most slower speeds than it does now!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2015, 09:32:22 AM »
Earl, at what speed does the ATR's rudder become ineffective in a one engine configuration?
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2015, 10:38:48 AM »
PR3D4TOR, how much multi-engine time do you have?  
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2015, 10:43:22 AM »
I'm not a pilot if that's what your asking.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3577
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2015, 10:51:07 AM »
Earl, at what speed does the ATR's rudder become ineffective in a one engine configuration?

Thats like asking how long is a piece of string.
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2015, 10:54:33 AM »
This is a research paper showing that the ATR 72 should have its vertical stabilizer increased by 12.5%.

http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/paper/RRDPAE-2008-Presentation_ATR72.pdf
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2015, 11:13:07 AM »
Thats like asking how long is a piece of string.

No. It's like asking at what speed does the ATR stall in a given configuration. Obviously Earl knows the minimum allowable speed for the ATR in a one-engine configuration, and that it is above stall speed, or he wouldn't claim that the ATR could operate at a lower speed with a larger rudder. Right?
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2015, 11:18:58 AM »
That "research paper" by some student is full of assumptions and hardly relevant.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3577
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2015, 11:20:47 AM »
No. It's like asking at what speed does the ATR stall in a given configuration. Obviously Earl knows the minimum allowable speed for the ATR in a one-engine configuration, and that it is above stall speed, or he wouldn't claim that the ATR could operate at a lower speed with a larger rudder. Right?

You have a lot of variables to plug in there to get an answer, "one engine" is only one of them.
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2015, 11:21:57 AM »
That "research paper" by some student is full of assumptions and hardly relevant.

It's a Master's Thesis.  Hardly 'some student'.
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2015, 11:27:05 AM »
It's still full of assumptions. Most critically about the mass of various components.

The people who actually designed the aircraft have all had their masters for some time...
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2015, 11:28:26 AM »
You have a lot of variables to plug in there to get an answer, "one engine" is only one of them.

The lowest allowable speed in different configurations should be printed in the flight manual and checklists.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3577
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2015, 11:36:48 AM »
The lowest allowable speed in different configurations should be printed in the flight manual and checklists.

Hehe ok, whatever you say :D. What environmental conditions do you plan to plug into this little equation?
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Footage of TransAsia Airway plane crash in Taipei
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2015, 11:38:38 AM »
From another bbs:

"VMC, specifically in this context, VMCa, is the minimum airspeed at which controlled flight can be achieved with an engine out, i.e asymmetric thrust. (VMC = minimum controllability speed). Drop below VMCa and, put very simply, the airflow over the rudder is not enough for it to retain authority to counteract the thrust asymmetry. You then end up in an uncontrollable yaw which leads to an uncontrollable roll and spiral dive.

VMCg is is min control speed on the ground, so the speed at which the rudder has enough authority to stop you spinning off the runway if you have asymmetric thrust."


So what's the VMCa of the ATR 72, and is it unreasonably high compared to other, similar types?
No gods or kings. Only Predator.