Author Topic: ATR 72 A Death Trap??  (Read 15155 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 11:42:52 PM »
From another board,

My Taiwanese wife is glued to the TV so I get complete update, like it or not.
What has been said on various Taiwanese TV stations is that the crew attempted a turn-around, realized they would not make it, and searched for an alternative spot to crash-land the plane. Not easy in busy Taipei. Zhongshan Airport is smack in the middle of downtown, Taipei city has simply grown around the airport over the years.

And so they went for the river, and Keelung River is not the Mississipi…
They narrowly avoided a block of buildings coming in, and stalled, grazing the taxi and hitting the river hard.

The crew is hailed as heroes for avoiding a much worse tragedy. That’s what the local media are saying so far.
Pilot was ex ROCAF on Mirage 2000 . Is that good or bad ?




Offline Zimme83

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 12:41:03 AM »
Commuter turbo props are a different thing than the bigger jets. The fly on short routes with a lot of take offs and landings on a day. They are often operated by smaller airlines that in some cases cut some corners on pilot training and maintainace. Many turbo props also flies in 3rd world countries were aviation safety isn't up to standard. Smaller planes are also more sensitive to wheather and weight imbalances.

How many ATR:s have the big airlines in EU/US lost in fatal accidents compare to the jets they operate?
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2015, 04:01:31 AM »
The investigators now say that both engine were out prior to the crash, engine 2 had a flameout and engine 1 were most likely shut Down  by the pilots. If that's the case a tragic misstake and it would not be the first time it happen.

From the black boxes, it certainly looks like its the case.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:21:35 AM by Zimme83 »
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline earl1937

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 12:09:46 PM »
The investigators now say that both engine were out prior to the crash, engine 2 had a flameout and engine 1 were most likely shut Down  by the pilots. If that's the case a tragic misstake and it would not be the first time it happen.

From the black boxes, it certainly looks like its the case.
(Image removed from quote.)
:airplane: You certainly have the technical facts, and now I am wondering if they, the crew, when cleaning up #1, did not accidently shut down #2, which would explain why they couldn't cont the climb. If they in fact reached 1,000 AGL, as indicated, they should have been home free on a single engine go around. Would not be the first time the wrong engine was shutdown due to pilot error, but we will have to wait on final report I guess to understand what really happened
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 12:19:01 PM »
So perhaps the thread should have been named "Pilots Incompetent Buffoons??" rather than attacking the engineers who designed the ATR?
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2015, 12:32:10 PM »
I work within gossip distance of the commercial flight industry. Actually I protect it. Im going to call some of my contacts and find out what the scuttlebutt is on this aircraft and airline.

I do know the Asian market is huge and getting huger all the time with a lot of start ups. My mechanic friends have had questions regarding flight hours per air frames in some of them because its profit time in the industry and these start ups feel pressure to make money NOW. So they have a lot of air frames and air crews in the air a LOT. More then other companies. Most of all regional routes.

Im not a mechanic and I know these modern commercial craft were built to be in the air but it doesnt sound like a good mix to me anyways.
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Offline FLS

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 12:44:19 PM »
This story is getting stranger. Right engine in idle then left engine shut off.

Offline Zimme83

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2015, 03:06:21 PM »
It has happen before, its a stressful situation and people makes errors when they get stressed. They might have belived that engine one also was surging. But it will most likley be revealed by the investigators.

Local newspaper in Taiwan have written about issues with pilot training etc at the airline and im sure questions will be asked.
the airframe was new (less then a year in service i think) so it should not have been an issue.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Guppy35

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 08:10:44 PM »
Would not the problem for the pilots been similar to 38 pilots losing an engine on take off?  That was my first thought seeing the film. 38 pilots were trained to reduce throttle to avoid flopping over on thier back from the torque of the operating engine.  Couldn't it be these guys just ran out of time?
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Offline Denniss

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2015, 07:01:52 AM »
They would have just reduce throttle but wouldn't cut fuel to the working engine. This mystery may only be solved after analyzing the cockpit voice recorder.

Offline earl1937

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2015, 08:31:55 AM »
Would not the problem for the pilots been similar to 38 pilots losing an engine on take off?  That was my first thought seeing the film. 38 pilots were trained to reduce throttle to avoid flopping over on thier back from the torque of the operating engine.  Couldn't it be these guys just ran out of time?
:airplane: Every multi engine aircraft has a VMC speed, i.e, the speed at which you no longer to able to control the aircraft flight on one engine! When doing through multi engine training, the one thing that is stressed so much and trained so much for, is operating on one engine! There is a "best rate of climb" on one engine in all twin engine aircraft!
If in the event of power failure, as you are cleaning up the bad engine, feathering, turning off fuel and etc, you want to be getting to that single engine climb speed. Now for reasons, sometimes beyond your control, late raising the gear would be good example, you are below that VMC speed, you are not going to have directional control over the aircraft and to keep it right side up, you would have to reduce power on good engine in order to maintain directional control. That may have been what happened, but don't think so! If that had enough time to climb to 1,000 AGL, they certainly had time to raise the landing gear after takeoff, which again leads me to believe they shut down the only good engine they had!
When viewing the recorders, engine #1 was the "failed" engine and shortly there after, #2 stopped producing thrust, so my guess right now is they just plain shut down the wrong engine when going through the emergency procedures!
Be aware for non pilots reading this post, VMC speed and stalling speeds are two different speeds, the aircraft stalling speed being the less of the two.
The whole point of my original post was, if this aircraft had a larger rudder, It would be able to maintain directional control down to a much lower speed!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 08:39:20 AM by earl1937 »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2015, 09:22:43 AM »
Earl, with all due respect. When you call the designers of the ATR-72 idiots for designing the tail surfaces too small, it would be nice if you'd cite the accidents that you think were caused by the said flaw in the same post in which you call them idiots.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2015, 10:53:05 AM »
http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/paper/RRDPAE-2008-Presentation_ATR72.pdf

From what I gather, this is a research paper showing that the ATR 72 should have a 12.5% larger vertical stabilizer.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2015, 11:20:31 AM »
Again, a student-paper full of assumptions is hardly relevant.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2015, 11:23:15 AM »
Again, this paper was written as a Master's Thesis by an aeronautical engineer.
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.