Author Topic: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH  (Read 7462 times)

Offline Full Metal Jug

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2015, 09:24:42 AM »
When it comes to base defense I crutch with the p40. On attack I like the p47. Different planes for different roles.

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Offline craz07

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2015, 09:44:37 AM »
has to be the spixteen.. no doubt about it...
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2015, 10:02:30 AM »
Yes and no. A slow fighter cant catch a faster one. A fast plane can always choose to not fight. So unlike the fast plane the slower one need atleast one bad decision from the opponent to be able to beat him.

Slow(er) planes such as the Spit 8/9/16 and 109G-14 outclimb most of the planes faster than them. The only way a faster plane will catch them is if they come in co-speed and co-alt, or they start higher than them. They may not be as fast horizontally, but they'll outclimb the reach of a faster opponent quickly. Due to climbing abilities, the quoted statement really isn't truly accurate.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2015, 10:07:22 AM »
Slow(er) planes such as the Spit 8/9/16 and 109G-14 outclimb most of the planes faster than them. The only way a faster plane will catch them is if they come in co-speed and co-alt, or they start higher than them. They may not be as fast horizontally, but they'll outclimb the reach of a faster opponent quickly. Due to climbing abilities, the quoted statement really isn't truly accurate.
Spit IX's climb is really not particularly good in AH.

The others you mention, well, yeah, they're good.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2015, 11:24:15 AM »
Slow(er) planes such as the Spit 8/9/16 and 109G-14 outclimb most of the planes faster than them. The only way a faster plane will catch them is if they come in co-speed and co-alt, or they start higher than them. They may not be as fast horizontally, but they'll outclimb the reach of a faster opponent quickly. Due to climbing abilities, the quoted statement really isn't truly accurate.

I wasnt talking about a spit 9 or G-14. I was talking about something like a Ki-43.

if i were in a La-7 and u in a Ki-43 there would be nothing u can do to kill me as long as i keep my speed up. U would prob be able to avoid my snap shots and if lucky stay alive long enough for me to run out of ammo but u cannot reverse the fight and go on the offensive as long as i dont screw up.
 (Luckily most people do that a lot so u can be succesful in a Ki-43 anyway.)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:32:53 AM by Zimme83 »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2015, 11:37:42 AM »
Spit IX's climb is really not particularly good in AH.

The others you mention, well, yeah, they're good.
Spit 9 is good enough to hang in the vertical with a K4 or KI84.
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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2015, 11:48:55 AM »
Spit 9 is good enough to hang in the vertical with a K4 or KI84.

Junky, you know better than this.  This is only true if the K4 and 84 drivers have no idea what they're doing.  If you fought you in a IX vs a K4 the IX-you wouldn't win one fight. 

K4s and 84s lose to IXs because they choose NOT to stay vertical and then the IX destroys them
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2015, 11:50:55 AM »
I wasnt talking about a spit 9 or G-14. I was talking about something like a Ki-43.

Perhaps, but using an extreme example of poor airspeed and applying it as the rule is relatively disingenuous.

Even then, in the end, the capabilities of the aircraft rely on ACM, which is derived from performance obtained from each aircraft's E/M diagram (I really wish HTC would include these in the game). A slow aircraft has inherent advantages that fast aircraft do not, and vice-versa. Just because fast aircraft can disengage more easily than slower aircraft does not give them an overall advantage in general, it's just a different, single type of advantage.

A good analogue to this is human intelligence. We can measure this through various testing and personality/cognitive profiles. We can also measure other individual characteristics, such as emotional quotient (EQ), by testing in a similar manner. The end result is that some people are more intelligent, some are more emotionally capable, etc.

The interesting thing, however, is that no one wants to be the "dumb" (or less-smart) one, as if that matters more than anything else. Many people are fine being more (or less) athletic, delegative, efficient, etc. If you tell them "the guy next to you is more athletic," few people would care. However, show (or tell) someone that they're not as smart as the guy next to them, and typically it's either challenged or met with resistance and/or hostility. However, it's objectively the same as any other measured trait. People tend to overvalue intelligence without understanding it's worthless without the ability to put forth the effort to make use of it, the determination to follow through with it, etc. Alone and by itself, intelligence is useless.

Players in AH (and it seems almost exclusively limited to AH) seem to treat aircraft airspeed in the same manner. It's an inherent trait to every aircraft, it's how the aircraft flies. If you don't like the airspeed advantage another plane has, either fly a similar plane, or learn to deal with it. Complaining about it is akin to complaining that the smart guy in class got a better score than you... followed by mocking his ability because you can't perform at his level (when you could have easily studied yourself... or chosen the same plane).

Typically, this is understood universally by the hardcore/enthusiast sim crowd, as it's the integral part of what makes ACM and WWII air combat varied. For whatever reason, however, the understanding (and acceptance) of this by this community is almost non-existent. Sadly ironic, as it's a major deterrent to anyone considering AH for realistic WWII dogfighting (as evident when compared to the number of players online at any moment across the various IL2 series, DCS, etc.).

None of this was aimed at you, by the way Zimme, it just created a nice segue.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:00:33 PM by Skyyr »
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2015, 11:53:07 AM »
Junky, you know better than this.  This is only true if the K4 and 84 drivers have no idea what they're doing.  If you fought you in a IX vs a K4 the IX-you wouldn't win one fight. 

K4s and 84s lose to IXs because they choose NOT to stay vertical and then the IX destroys them

The 84 completely dominates the Spit IX below 11k, and is on par with it up to ~16k. It isn't even funny how easy-mode it is. If you do an E/M diagram overlay of the Ki-84 against all of the Spits, it's almost a mirror of the Spit-XVI.

I agree on the K-4, however, as it will dominate the Spit IX at any altitude below 20k.
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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2015, 11:55:46 AM »
The 84 completely dominates the Spit IX below 11k, and is on par with it up to ~16k. It isn't even funny how easy-mode it is. If you do an E/M diagram overlay of the Ki-84 against all of the Spits, it's almost a mirror of the Spit-XVI.

I agree on the K-4, however, as it will dominate the Spit IX at any altitude below 20k.

And you made my point.  Performance wasn't the argument I was making.  Pilot choice was.  There are no overlays for that.

Junky was saying it would perform with it.
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2015, 12:01:38 PM »
See Rule #4

Offline Someguy63

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Offline onerka

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2015, 12:11:22 PM »
A reply from a terrible pilot of wwii planes.

Prior to AH 5 or 6 years ago, I've spent years flying wwi planes in tight turn fighting where there is usually no chance to extend at all unless you are the last plane flying.  Qualification, I have not done any training in wwii planes (should have/probably will at some point) and just have not been able to wipe away the SA and muscle memory related to wwi flying.  The only planes I've had even moderate success in were the Japanese planes, Ki 43, Ki 61, and Ki 84 and the Zero.  In addition, it's imperative I find a pilot to shoot at who is on a suicide mission who makes the mistake of turning a few times on the deck instead of extending.  In essence those are my crutch planes...admittedly in very specific situations.  Otherwise, even a crutch won't work, I'm bedridden...

Good thread...thinking about trying a few of the planes that have been mentioned the most.  Would be interesting if someone did a matrix of responses to see which is (are) most likely the real crutch(s), when a crutch is in need.

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Offline Someguy63

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2015, 12:11:56 PM »
Perhaps, but using an extreme example of poor airspeed and applying it as the rule is relatively disingenuous.

Even then, in the end, the capabilities of the aircraft rely on ACM, which is derived from performance obtained from each aircraft's E/M diagram (I really wish HTC would include these in the game). A slow aircraft has inherent advantages that fast aircraft do not, and vice-versa. Just because fast aircraft can disengage more easily than slower aircraft does not give them an overall advantage in general, it's just a different, single type of advantage.

I'm sorry but what is an E/M diagram.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:13:46 PM by Someguy63 »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Biggest "crutch" plane of AH
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2015, 12:16:41 PM »
Junky, you know better than this.  This is only true if the K4 and 84 drivers have no idea what they're doing.  If you fought you in a IX vs a K4 the IX-you wouldn't win one fight. 

K4s and 84s lose to IXs because they choose NOT to stay vertical and then the IX destroys them
I'll take you up on that....but your giving yourself a lot of credit....so when I see you on next time, don't back down :aok. I truly believe the K4 and KI84s advantage in climb rate isn't enough to give them an incredible advantage over a Spit 9 in a below 10K fight, the fight will still end up in a position where the KI or K4 have to rope the Spit 9 with a very small E advantage at low speed(Vertical scissors) not many players have great timing there, they pull too early making it an easy shot....or come over too late missing the rope which in turn, normally results in the lower con with a shot opportunity),....spit 5 on the other hand....not as hard to rope.

Oh and I know your going to say something about having a huge advantage in the initial...maybe a bit but the zoom climbs of all three of these planes is very similar, and the spit will flat turn at the top better then both, so I will be fine. :aok
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