Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)

[BFOOT1]

Just to refocus the discussion, the following are the two biggest outstanding things to decide.

------------- Let's Decide A ------------------

Do we have all Spits be Spit V's or half of them be Spit V's and half Spit IX's?  After thinking about it, my opinion is slightly on the side of some Spit IX's for better fighter balance given that the Spit group did get some Spit IX's in March, 1943.

------------- Let's Decide B ------------------

For dealing with walkons, do we:
1.  Allow any pilots (registered or walkon) to fill any open spot.
or
2.  Restrict walkons to P-40's and C.202's.

Keep in mind that #1 means we probably will often not have many P-40's or C.202's flying around.  I prefer #2, but almost all comments are in favor of #1, so I'm predicting we will go with that unless we see #2 gaining enough support.

I have a statement and question. I say do half and half with the Spits since they were historically correct. Perhaps that'll get more people for the Spit group.

My question is has the 109F been considered as an alternate for the C.202? What about the C.205? I was doing some research and found that they were operating in the area, and performed pretty well against allied fighters. Just my thoughts, and just trying to help. No one rip my head off please 

Edit: my idea with the C.205 is perhaps have a split unit 50/50 of C.202's and C.205's, similar to our spit units. For walkons at least a C.205 is better than the C.202, and a 109 F is better than the C.202 in my opinion at least.

Edit: Also didn't see the time was February 1943, thought it was may for some reason silly me.

[Randall172]

This is a bit of a philosophical question -- but I'm interested in people's thoughts.

Folks, if you you feel that walkons would rather not participate than fly a C.202 or P-40, then that sentiment should apply to registered pilots as well.

In that case, should we have Scenarios that have only MA-popular planes regardless of what was there historically (i.e., no P-40's, P-39's, and C.202's in Scenarios like this)?

What do people think?

I would love fictional scenarios / continuation latewar scenarios.

[Devil 505]

I am against the addition of the Spit9. It did not arrive in the MTO until April. The Spit5 is still competitive in this plane set because it is the best turning plane overall. It's like an A6M in any mid to late war PTO setup. The allies don't need better planes to achieve fighter balance, they need more total planes, which is also more historically accurate.

As for the C.205. It also entered service in April.

I even think the 109F tilts the balance too far to the Axis's favor. The Allies need to fill those P-39 and P-40 slots and their best chance is against the C.202.

[Brooke]

It's like an A6M in any mid to late war PTO setup.

That's a point in favor of IX's since Zeros have a very tough time once the allied plane set gets substantially faster.

The allies . . . need more total planes, which is also more historically accurate.

The axis went from having superior aircraft numbers in combat (maybe not in theater, but in combat) to being outnumbered in combat sometime between Oct., 1942 and April, 1943.  So, somewhere in that period, the numbers were about even.  I'm not sure if the allies had more planes in Feb, but assuming they did --

That's too hard to administer during the 12-hour with great fluctuations of player numbers and allocation of walkons every hour.  Workable is to balance the aircraft so that we can have equal numbers on each side.

[Devil 505]

That's a point in favor of IX's since Zeros have a very tough time once the allied plane set gets substantially faster.

Yes, but the disparity here is nowhere close to what is routinely seen in PTO events. The spit is better than the Zeke and the 190 is the closest thing to the Allied monsters in the PTO. My point is that like the Zeke, the SpitV has a dominant feature, which can be exploited by their pilots to have success. The SpitV is far better than the P-40, P-39 and C.202. You should know just how capable the SpitV is after the last Malta scenario.

The axis went from having superior aircraft numbers in combat (maybe not in theater, but in combat) to being outnumbered in combat sometime between Oct., 1942 and April, 1943.  So, somewhere in that period, the numbers were about even.  I'm not sure if the allies had more planes in Feb, but assuming they did --

That's too hard to administer during the 12-hour with great fluctuations of player numbers and allocation of walkons every hour.  Workable is to balance the aircraft so that we can have equal numbers on each side.

Ok, this makes sense. 

[Devil 505]

I just did a long test of A-20G vs. Bf 110C in AH3.

In the A-20G, I can manage about 20 ground guns with the full 2100 rounds of ammo (105 rounds/kill).  I can manage 2-3 ground objects with the bombs.

In the Bf 110C, I can manage 49 ground guns with the full 360 cannon rounds (7.3 rounds/kill), not touching the .303 rounds (with which I can manage more ground guns).  I can manage 1-2 ground objects with the bombs.

So, for me, I would kill more things with a Bf 110C than an A-20G.  I am much better in these planes and in ground attack than the average ground attack pilot flying with me will be.  For them, explosion radius of cannons will help, and they are likely to have trouble in the A-20 hitting single isolated ground objects with bombs.  So, for the average attack pilot, too, the Bf 110C is better than the A-20G.

Now, that being said, given that the large majority of points in attack will come from strafing, it won't make much difference if the A-20's take 250 lb bombs, 500 lb bombs, or no bombs.  I would set it to 250 lbs and be done with the arguing, except --

The only place where the bomb load is likely to matter is against ships.  The 110 and 190 are way better at placing bombs than the A-20 because of its bad roll, absolutely horrible negative pitch response, and ripping off wings above 6 g's on pullout.  So, to make damage to ships more even (although I don't expect that to be a major a source of points for the attack planes), I think the A-20 should be able to carry 500 lbers.

Devil, if you do your own testing and it is significantly different than this, then I will invite you into a custom arena with me, and we will go through it together.

Brooke, let's just do a session in a custom arena. That way we know that all the arena settings are consistent.

 

[Guppy35]

Yes, but the disparity here is nowhere close to what is routinely seen in PTO events. The spit is better than the Zeke and the 190 is the closest thing to the Allied monsters in the PTO. My point is that like the Zeke, the SpitV has a dominant feature, which can be exploited by their pilots to have success. The SpitV is far better than the P-40, P-39 and C.202. You should know just how capable the SpitV is after the last Malta scenario.

Ok, this makes sense. 

You are talking from a LW view.  I flew Vs against 109s and 190s in a scenario.  In the 1941 version you end up flying defensive more than anything as you can't catch the 109s or 190s.  Even if it's 8 Spit V and 4 IX it helps    Give me the old AH Spitfire LF V and I'd say no IXs but we got the early V which is not the Spit Vc of 43.  Not to mention it only has half the ammo load of the Vc

[Devil 505]

Except now you have lots of P-38's to do do the chasing.

Besides, the 31st FG received hand-me-down SpitV's - many of which were Vb's, with the Vokes filter no less. Our Vb is very representative of what was likely to be encountered over Tunisia in early '43.

The Spit9 completely unbalances the fighters in the event as it would become the best overall fighter in the event. Even 4 is too many for this event.

[Guppy35]

Except now you have lots of P-38's to do do the chasing.

Besides, the 31st FG received hand-me-down SpitV's - many of which were Vb's, with the Vokes filter no less. Our Vb is very representative of what was likely to be encountered over Tunisia in early '43.

The Spit9 completely unbalances the fighters in the event as it would become the best overall fighter in the event. Even 4 is too many for this event.

38Gs running stuff down? J models maybe but we don't have those.   Sub Seafire IIc then so the Vc ammo load is available.   

[Devil 505]

Sub Seafire IIc then so the Vc ammo load is available.

This would work I think.

What do you think, 50/50 split between SpitV's and Seafires?

[Brooke]

Yes, but the disparity here is nowhere close to what is routinely seen in PTO events. [etc.]

True.

[Brooke]

Brooke, let's just do a session in a custom arena. That way we know that all the arena settings are consistent.

 

Thank you, Devil!  That is awesome! 

I'm not sure what time zone you are in.  Except for Wednesday nights, I'm available most nights after 8 pm Pacific.  I could be available prior to 11 am Pacific most days.  I could probably make 6 pm Pacific.  I can make Saturdays from about 2 pm Pacific to about 5:30 pm Pacific.  I'll message you my cell phone number so that you can text me for coordination.

By the way, folks, once Devil and I set a time, we can open it up to anyone else who wants to come in and test things.  I'll post the date and time once I know.

I will set it up in AH3, as I'm thinking that's what we'll have by October, but we can adjust things for AH2 if AH3 isn't out by then as well.

[Brooke]

You are talking from a LW view.  I flew Vs against 109s and 190s in a scenario.  [etc.]

I flew 190A-5's in a Scenario against Spit IX's and Spit V's.  Before doing this, I thought Spits would eat us up, but afterwards, I saw that I was completely wrong and thought that the 190A-5 was -- in a Scenario type fight -- superior to even the IX, let alone the Spit V.

[KCDitto]

I flew 190A-5's in a Scenario against Spit IX's and Spit V's.  Before doing this, I thought Spits would eat us up, but afterwards, I saw that I was completely wrong and thought that the 190A-5 was -- in a Scenario type fight -- superior to even the IX, let alone the Spit V.

That is only because you flew with a GREAT squad                

[branch37]

I know I'm getting in on this discussion late but a spit IX, at high alt, will simply walk away from anything the axis could possibly field in a 1943 setup. Paired with Vs and flown in close coordination, they could be downright unstoppable.


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