Author Topic: Anyone using TIR?  (Read 15658 times)

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2016, 04:43:01 AM »
Thank for the help for those that posted. I got a chance to look at this and I'm very sorry but its just . . . wrong.

I can look behind my now. That is a relief! However, the way this works is you lean to the left to look out the right side of the canopy and vice versa. This isn't just counter intuitive, its just plain wrong. I've flown bubble canopied sailplanes in real life and that just plain isn't how it works. That is disorienting in the extreme. You should look and lean left to see down the left side all the way to the tail. Same for the right.

Then it is small amounts of turning, with massive amounts of lean to look to the side. The head box just seems very constricting. If you turn around far enough you just look at the headrest no matter how far you lean. That isn't right either. If you have leaned to the point of putting your head on the canopy and turn to see behind, you should see behind. There is just no two ways about it.

As to the forward view, it is impossible to lock your head forward. Keep in mind the differences between a real pilot and computer pilot. A real pilot is strapped into a non-moving chair and so looking forward is relatively constrained. A real pilot has limited movement and finding forward is easy. A computer pilot sits in a rolling and tilting chair and so having zero relative movement between the chair and the TIR sensor is a nice thought but not really achievable. Throw in rudder pedals and body English and keeping the forward view becomes its OWN game with shooting becoming secondary. 

A computer pilot needs to be able to lock the view forward to shoot and KNOW that its in the exact right position for shooting right NOW, not hunting around to find the right place.

The aim point and bullet drop seem to be off, particularly compared to AH2. The bullets drop so far that high angle deflection shots are almost impossible since the relative position of the aim point and bullet impact are very disconnected.

I love the eye candy! But control of the view is the game issue. The graphics are beautiful but with these issues, air combat is more like rolling dice than it is about control. Throw in the fact that the game seems to lose the graphics drivers on a regular basis every 20 minutes or so and a person wonders what they are doing with trying to make this work. IMHO, air combat is about precision. The pilot needs to be able to KNOW exactly what they are doing with their computer body in the computer plane and not guess.

It seems very much like the simple solution is to look at the view keys locking the view. Its time honored, having been used for years and the pilot will always KNOW exactly what view they locked to, and not have it wavering around with random head movements. The update doesn't really add anything and actually subtracts from what a computer pilot has to do. You can work around it but it the same way you would work around flying while sitting on a basketball. It can be done but it doesn't really help the experience :).

Thanks!
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2016, 05:07:57 AM »
Brother, every single view is adjustable in TIR! This isn't a complete flight simulator. It is however just about the best combat simulator out there. True, AH2's view keys I liked, as I used a look forward button to slave views to a dot on my screen and I miss it! Just a bit of dead band solves this problem though. With all the new tech out there, its pretty hard to get a game that can accommodate everyone's desires. Sure the look back view is a bit off setting, but you will get used to it. Pretty sure that this game will never be as close to real life as DCS, and I am fine with that! I don't really need to know how to go through the start up processes before take off.   Being that you have "REAL WORLD" experience flying maybe you are expecting a bit too much? This Is only 15 bucks a month, so I am more than willing to give up a few real world situations. Not sure as to where you are coming from when you say ballistics are different? You should have been here for the ALPHA and BETA testing! At least now we have VERY noticeable hit sprites, and ca see the tracers. As to why you cant get TIR set up to suit you, I am befuddled! Looking around the head rest is pretty easy,, Pause TIR and adjust your head placement(for me three clicks) and set your X axis to a fast curve, and you never even see the headrest. Every point in the curves are adjustable, with 6 axis and several other options, I have a hard time understanding why anyone cant figure it out. This will never compare to real life experiences, it is a game! The flight models are spot on, as far as I know. It is still a work in progress, just like AH2. Yes AH2 was a pay to play, but bugs were still found after years of play. This game version has been in testing for about 2 years, and a lot of stuff has been improved. You will just need to adjust your attitude a bit and be willing to adapt! I can send you my settings in TIR, or you can get it from a previous post on this thread, if you like.
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2016, 05:20:34 AM »
Thank for the help for those that posted. I got a chance to look at this and I'm very sorry but its just . . . wrong.

I can look behind my now. That is a relief! However, the way this works is you lean to the left to look out the right side of the canopy and vice versa. This isn't just counter intuitive, its just plain wrong. I've flown bubble canopied sailplanes in real life and that just plain isn't how it works. That is disorienting in the extreme. You should look and lean left to see down the left side all the way to the tail. Same for the right.

Then it is small amounts of turning, with massive amounts of lean to look to the side. The head box just seems very constricting. If you turn around far enough you just look at the headrest no matter how far you lean. That isn't right either. If you have leaned to the point of putting your head on the canopy and turn to see behind, you should see behind. There is just no two ways about it.

As to the forward view, it is impossible to lock your head forward. Keep in mind the differences between a real pilot and computer pilot. A real pilot is strapped into a non-moving chair and so looking forward is relatively constrained. A real pilot has limited movement and finding forward is easy. A computer pilot sits in a rolling and tilting chair and so having zero relative movement between the chair and the TIR sensor is a nice thought but not really achievable. Throw in rudder pedals and body English and keeping the forward view becomes its OWN game with shooting becoming secondary. 

A computer pilot needs to be able to lock the view forward to shoot and KNOW that its in the exact right position for shooting right NOW, not hunting around to find the right place.

The aim point and bullet drop seem to be off, particularly compared to AH2. The bullets drop so far that high angle deflection shots are almost impossible since the relative position of the aim point and bullet impact are very disconnected.

I love the eye candy! But control of the view is the game issue. The graphics are beautiful but with these issues, air combat is more like rolling dice than it is about control. Throw in the fact that the game seems to lose the graphics drivers on a regular basis every 20 minutes or so and a person wonders what they are doing with trying to make this work. IMHO, air combat is about precision. The pilot needs to be able to KNOW exactly what they are doing with their computer body in the computer plane and not guess.

It seems very much like the simple solution is to look at the view keys locking the view. Its time honored, having been used for years and the pilot will always KNOW exactly what view they locked to, and not have it wavering around with random head movements. The update doesn't really add anything and actually subtracts from what a computer pilot has to do. You can work around it but it the same way you would work around flying while sitting on a basketball. It can be done but it doesn't really help the experience :).

Thanks!

!
Some planes just have crappy back visibility! You get way more head motion in the game than you ever would in real life. If you cant get that result, the more head movement) then you are not using TIR to the max! Looks like you are just going with default curve settings? Dead band will keep ypur view steady if you are one of those that just cant let go of the old hat switch ways. I use absolutely NO buttons for views at all
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 05:27:37 AM by 1stpar3 »
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2016, 05:35:54 AM »
As far as aim point and ballistics go...you should have been here in the earlier days. Tracers were almost non visible! The gunnery problem is very easy to overcome! Learn to get in close! Outside of 400 yards gunnery gets tricky, especially in a deflection situation. I don't think that is a game issue but more of a pilot problem. I have zero problem getting good results with guns, but this is new graphics engine and some things just look different. WE have visible tracers now and way brighter hit sprites! Tracers may not be as visable as some would like, but seems to me to be a bit more realistic. You need to learn how to shoot here, as watching tracers and adjusting isn't as effective now.
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2016, 05:43:44 AM »
Oh! One more tidbit. If you will sit in a chair and turn your head as far as you can in any direction and then lean in that direction, do you think you could see a con crossing perpendicular to your flight path? I cant! With TIR it solves this!!! Looking left and leaning left, lets yo see the con as he crosses your flight path from left to right. Then its a simple head neutral, lean right and track him!
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline oboe

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2016, 08:20:02 AM »
Thank for the help for those that posted. I got a chance to look at this and I'm very sorry but its just . . . wrong.

I can look behind my now. That is a relief! However, the way this works is you lean to the left to look out the right side of the canopy and vice versa. This isn't just counter intuitive, its just plain wrong. I've flown bubble canopied sailplanes in real life and that just plain isn't how it works. That is disorienting in the extreme. You should look and lean left to see down the left side all the way to the tail. Same for the right...

I'm pretty new to TrackIR and am going through the some of the same issues.  Here are the instructions that solved my "Look over the right shoulder to see back to the left" problem - its a simple settings change:

In TrackIR under Advanced Settings/Profiles tab in the "Motion Adjustment" section - make sure the "TrueView" box is checked.

In AH3, under Options/Preferences/VR, make sure the "TrackIR Object Relative Move" box is checked.

That will enable you to look back and right by leaning forward and looking back to the right.  Same for the left - its back to being intuitive.

Unfortunately, some planes just have terrible 6 views, like the Hellcat and the razorback P-47.  Using a hat switch for views, you could enable a head position to optimize the 6 views as much as possible in these aircraft. However with TrackIR, I think its much closer to real life, and that's probably why the bubble-canopy aircraft were such an advancement.  I think there's no doubt about it, in some a/c, the realism of TrackIR puts players at a disadvantage compared to those using instant views with a hat switch.

Another tip, I mapped my JS pinkie switch to the 'Center' action in the Hotkeys section of the TrackIR profile.  I find I have to recenter my head position for TRackIR often, and have a button on the JS mapped to this function is critical.

A big part of it is just getting accustomed to using TrackIR - my neck still gets sore when I play for an hour or so.  Buts its getting better, and the immersion of not having to use hat switch views has me hooked.

<S>!


Offline FESS67

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2016, 02:44:09 PM »
Thank for the help for those that posted. I got a chance to look at this and I'm very sorry but its just . . . wrong.

I can look behind my now. That is a relief! However, the way this works is you lean to the left to look out the right side of the canopy and vice versa. This isn't just counter intuitive, its just plain wrong. I've flown bubble canopied sailplanes in real life and that just plain isn't how it works. That is disorienting in the extreme. You should look and lean left to see down the left side all the way to the tail. Same for the right.

Then it is small amounts of turning, with massive amounts of lean to look to the side. The head box just seems very constricting. If you turn around far enough you just look at the headrest no matter how far you lean. That isn't right either. If you have leaned to the point of putting your head on the canopy and turn to see behind, you should see behind. There is just no two ways about it.

As to the forward view, it is impossible to lock your head forward. Keep in mind the differences between a real pilot and computer pilot. A real pilot is strapped into a non-moving chair and so looking forward is relatively constrained. A real pilot has limited movement and finding forward is easy. A computer pilot sits in a rolling and tilting chair and so having zero relative movement between the chair and the TIR sensor is a nice thought but not really achievable. Throw in rudder pedals and body English and keeping the forward view becomes its OWN game with shooting becoming secondary. 

A computer pilot needs to be able to lock the view forward to shoot and KNOW that its in the exact right position for shooting right NOW, not hunting around to find the right place.

The aim point and bullet drop seem to be off, particularly compared to AH2. The bullets drop so far that high angle deflection shots are almost impossible since the relative position of the aim point and bullet impact are very disconnected.

I love the eye candy! But control of the view is the game issue. The graphics are beautiful but with these issues, air combat is more like rolling dice than it is about control. Throw in the fact that the game seems to lose the graphics drivers on a regular basis every 20 minutes or so and a person wonders what they are doing with trying to make this work. IMHO, air combat is about precision. The pilot needs to be able to KNOW exactly what they are doing with their computer body in the computer plane and not guess.

It seems very much like the simple solution is to look at the view keys locking the view. Its time honored, having been used for years and the pilot will always KNOW exactly what view they locked to, and not have it wavering around with random head movements. The update doesn't really add anything and actually subtracts from what a computer pilot has to do. You can work around it but it the same way you would work around flying while sitting on a basketball. It can be done but it doesn't really help the experience :).

Thanks!

Read oboe's post for how to make the turn / lean left feel intuitive.

Re-read my post about putting a dead band in for the forward view - I can make it so that it is completely locked in the forward aspect by the use of deadbands in each axis

If you feel so inclined perhaps ask someone to share their TIR profile with you and then tweak that to your preference


Offline TheRapier

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2016, 03:11:05 PM »
Hey Oboe!

Thanks for a super helpful post! Putting the actual path to setting really makes it possible to change it! I'll set this up this afternoon.

As to the deadband, this is a term that is tossed out there by a number of people. I would be happy to take a look at their TIR profiles to see how they are accomplishing it. What I'm doing is sticking a flat part in the Yaw curve that corresponds to the dead forward looking position. I'm using the center and its first two sections to make this flat part. What I see is that TIR is very sensitive to the width and the amount of curvature that is used. Is anyone making that deadband wider than that?

Hey Fess!

From what you are saying, you are actually deadbanding in 3 axes? or just in X and Y? How wide do you make it?

1stPar, please take this the right way. IMHO, just saying it should be better is nice but its not the most helpful thing. I have been doing this for a quarter century and I've seen a few things come and go. Everyone here had a game called AHII that for its same $14.95 per month, delivered the features that are being asked for. It is natural when you are paying the same price for less functionality to ask, why? The answer either satisfies or you do something else with that money. It is literally that simple. I have friends that are saying this is the end of the road for them. The stuff that it takes to get this game working acceptably again is too great. You can say good riddance but I'd like to actually be able to show them how to get it working. In looking at the AH community, I honestly don't see how it can get any smaller and survive in any viable form. Each person we save is a possible viral phenomena for the game.

Telling anyone to "just feel better" is IMHO an empty phrase. I'd much rather give them concrete things to try. One of the things I'm not sure everyone is aware of, is that HALF of the people who were playing AH (an already small number), are trying to decide to make the jump or not. This is WHERE we can lose a huge number of people. I'm not Mr. Wonderfulguy but I AM here and asking questions. There are many who are not and won't. IMHO, there should be an active outreach into AHII to pull those folks over. Many are cancelling or will cancel by the end of the month. Once lost, how will anyone communicate with them? Like it or not, this game has a older demographic with lots of players in their 60s and 70s. You throw a major curve at these folks and they just QUIT. They don't need the aggravation of trying to get it all working again.

IMHO.

Thanks!
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Offline bustr

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2016, 03:39:18 PM »
They can always simplify it by reducing their TIR profile to pitch and yaw while they are getting used to AHIII. Pitch and yaw 2-axis will inherit their saved head positions as they mover their head around on two axis. Gives the best 6-view possible for the really bad 6-view planes.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2016, 05:09:45 PM »
Thanks all the suggestions! I will try them out.

Just a thought though. I'm wondering what is the gain? What is the particular advantage of the new system that makes it a desirable change from the old? In the old system you just leaned out to the side and looked, no touching of keys. It seems under this system you hit the left key and turn. Isn't that one added key press?

It seems that which control overrides which control is an ordering issue. Just change the order and voila! there is no adaptation time or effort from AHII to AHIII. Seems like a win-win.

Much appreciated!

Track IR is working fine for me, I use all default settings, like I did in AH2, I don't touch keys or press keys, I just look or lean and look.   If it ever isn't working properly it usually is interference from a stray light source for me.
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Offline FESS67

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2016, 05:27:00 PM »
I do not use the Y axis nor roll.  I find that makes it more like the old style button views.  I know that not using the Y axis means I cannot look over the nose however I find with it enabled it often places me on the floor of the cockpit which is worse than not having it on.

In this profile the deadbands are small but just drag them out to flatten the start of the curve.

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2016, 03:58:08 AM »
Rapier, I don't take much personally in here. No worries, not really sure about the nice is ok but doesn't help? I have a curve mapping post in this thread if you want to see how I set deadband. I understand that most real time pilots con spot the difference in AHIII a mile away! There have been a lot of tips on this thread to help alleviate some of your problems with TIR. So please don't take this the wrong way either, but we are trying to helpyou out here and it seems you either don't understand what we are saying, or just too set in your ways to try and fix it. Personally, If you throw out an I am a pilot and have been for xx amount of time, doesn't really help much either. This isn't real life, its just a game that tries to incorporate as much modeling as they can with out making it to hard to pick up for some players. I would play DCS if it wasn't so complicated, not sure how many would be in this game it WAS more realistic. The help has been given and explained the best I can so I am at a loss on how else to help.
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2016, 04:18:10 AM »
I don't understand why this thread has gone five pages? My TrackIR was broken and unusable during Beta (just never sent it off until near the end), but when it got fixed and returned to me I installed the Aces High profile (smooth) and BOOM, I was in business. Leaning works with no problem. It's intuitive. Really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkcaVmToMOU
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2016, 04:55:45 AM »
Had to read just WAY too many posts.

It sounds like you need to go through and readjust your camera and head position to make sure the IR emitters are centered to the camera. Do that first, and then worry about curves. I would think after that you can do everything by trial and error, but just to be on the safe side you can follow along on YouTube with Gerry Abbott as he works out the curves for DCS A10 (sorry, but I just don't have time to make a video on this topic even though I had planned to do so).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TASEXUd4Oto
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Anyone using TIR?
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2016, 10:23:39 AM »
Rapier, I don't take much personally in here. No worries, not really sure about the nice is ok but doesn't help? I have a curve mapping post in this thread if you want to see how I set deadband. I understand that most real time pilots con spot the difference in AHIII a mile away! There have been a lot of tips on this thread to help alleviate some of your problems with TIR. So please don't take this the wrong way either, but we are trying to helpyou out here and it seems you either don't understand what we are saying, or just too set in your ways to try and fix it. Personally, If you throw out an I am a pilot and have been for xx amount of time, doesn't really help much either. This isn't real life, its just a game that tries to incorporate as much modeling as they can with out making it to hard to pick up for some players. I would play DCS if it wasn't so complicated, not sure how many would be in this game it WAS more realistic. The help has been given and explained the best I can so I am at a loss on how else to help.

Could you post a copy of your xml file he so we can drop it in to our profiles and get it a test run to see how you have your set?