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Author Topic: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight  (Read 5612 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 10:31:58 PM »
Quote from: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 09:05:22 PM
Try watching the last film before you repeat yourself....

Your film shows the smoke trail start at the gun barrel then you fly through it.  Just like HiTech explained.  :aok
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 10:39:18 PM »
There is gun camera footage with this type of thing in plain view. I tried searching for it, but without success.
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Offline Dobs

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 10:47:40 PM »
Why then don't you see this in other planes? And why when I do the Vaunted FLS test of filming me flying in a circle shooting, does it appear the tracers are coming out from the top of the aircraft.

I'm not saying the Tracers are wrong...I'm saying the graphic for the smoke trail is...
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Offline Dobs

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 10:49:44 PM »
So maybe the length of persistence on the smoke needs to be changed so you don't feel like an X wing fighter or someone is behind you shooting......

« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 11:00:20 PM by Dobs »
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Offline FLS

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 10:54:49 PM »
Quote from: Dobs on September 29, 2016, 10:47:40 PM
Why then don't you see this in other planes? And why when I do the Vaunted FLS test of filming me flying in a circle shooting, does it appear the tracers are coming out from the top of the aircraft.

I'm not saying the Tracers are wrong...I'm saying the graphic for the smoke trail is...

If you use the F5 view, look down on the turn circle, zoom in, slow down the speed, you will see the smoke trail start at the gun barrel then you fly through it. But I repeat myself.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2016, 02:16:58 AM »
Quote from: hitech on September 29, 2016, 12:01:24 PM
Because your nose is pointed above your flight trajectory when pulling G's (I.E AOA) your shooting to the inside of your circle and as the plane goes around the circle the tracer trail goes above you and then you fly back threw it.

So the wing must 'understeer' in effect (pushes down through the air while turning)? I never expected that.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2016, 02:40:00 AM »
Thinking about this it's right - but counterintuitive. Dobs if you imagine a 38 flying level but with an angle of attack of, say, 30 degrees, then each tracer would make a 30 degree inclined line from the nose which would then fall behind and appear above the canopy. In a turn the Alpha relative to the flightpath is the same it's just that the line is now a curve, right?

No understeer needed  :rofl
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Offline Drane

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2016, 07:59:16 AM »
This belongs in the "Help and Training" forum.
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Offline Dobs

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2016, 09:57:35 AM »
Sorry...but disagree that your AOA is fully different from your flight path (velocity vector)..it is different from the relative wind.   You have to have AOA to turn...the higher your speed the lower your AOA required for the same G. 

If anyone finds actual gun footage where tracers trails are going up in the fov while they are pulling Gs please share.

I understand what HT is saying, it is almost like the guns have upcant built in...

I think maybe its the persistence of the trails that is throwing me off...that I see the smoke trail above and behind me...   
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Offline hitech

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2016, 11:43:09 AM »
Quote from: Dobs on September 30, 2016, 09:57:35 AM
Sorry...but disagree that your AOA is fully different from your flight path (velocity vector)..it is different from the relative wind.   You have to have AOA to turn...the higher your speed the lower your AOA required for the same G. 

If anyone finds actual gun footage where tracers trails are going up in the fov while they are pulling Gs please share.

I understand what HT is saying, it is almost like the guns have upcant built in...

I think maybe its the persistence of the trails that is throwing me off...that I see the smoke trail above and behind me...   

Ive seen multiple gun cam showing trails going over head.

Also when I first wrote this about 15 years ago, I also thought it was a bug until it dawned on me what was going on.

HiTech
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2016, 12:40:55 PM »
Dobs could be right that the game is showing the tracers trails in the wrong place; logic dictates that when in a turn the trail should not be in the top of the screen but towards the bottom, because your have moved forward, up and angled up from the initial firing position where the trail began.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 01:01:18 PM »
Quote from: LCADolby on September 30, 2016, 12:40:55 PM
Dobs could be right that the game is showing the tracers trails in the wrong place; logic dictates that when in a turn the trail should not be in the top of the screen but towards the bottom, because your have moved forward, up and angled up from the initial firing position where the trail began.

That is completely wrong and shown to be false on Dobs AH film.

As Hitech pointed out, firing your guns on the runway shows you where the tracer smoke originates.

The test I suggested to Dobs shows you that it still originates at the gun barrel in a turn.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 01:08:44 PM by FLS »
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Offline hitech

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2016, 01:31:48 PM »
Quote from: LCADolby on September 30, 2016, 12:40:55 PM
Dobs could be right that the game is showing the tracers trails in the wrong place; logic dictates that when in a turn the trail should not be in the top of the screen but towards the bottom, because your have moved forward, up and angled up from the initial firing position where the trail began.

Incorrect you have moved forward and down from the trail.
Diagram.

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Offline Dobs

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 02:26:02 PM »
Quote from: hitech on September 30, 2016, 01:31:48 PM
Incorrect you have moved forward and down from the trail.
Diagram.

(Image removed from quote.)

So from that diagram--here is what I take...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYaWpwaWpRa3EwQk0/view?usp=sharing
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Offline FLS

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Re: Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 02:34:42 PM »
Quote from: Dobs on September 30, 2016, 02:26:02 PM
So from that diagram--here is what I take...

The aircraft in your diagram wouldn't be turning, it would fly straight.
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