More MAX information

[Vraciu]

WOW! That hits about every  >DO NOT< on the CRM checklist.

Tough to watch.

Lots of holes in the Swiss Cheese lined up on this one.   Ultimately, it's up to all of us to do the right thing when nobody is looking.  Banners on the hangar won't cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal any more than rule books of paper, to steal from Ernest Gann.    (I actually got let go from a corporate job for saying this.  Yet the pilots using laptops in the cockpit to look up their stock options are still there.  Hey, at least they passed their ISBAO audit.)

[Toad]

Hey, at least they passed their ISBAO audit.)

Yup. The G-IV outfit that crashed at Hanscom had gotten IS-BAO Stage 2 recognition. That was another cluster.

[Shuffler]

No, I said they were obviously trying to fly the aircraft. Toad, Ciaphas and Puma basically expanded on what I was trying to convey.

I was commenting more on the idea what Toad wrote about - with regards to the media. The media says just about anything to reach the reader/ watcher and come off sounding like experts or at the least acting like they have insider information. Unfortunately too many people form opinions based more on emotion than fact pressuring politicians and officials to “react” to a problem yet to be identified. Was it the Plane? Or was it the Crew? Or was it a combination of both? I don’t know. However, like everybody else I would like to know.

There is a lot going on - on a flight deck. Especially after takeoff. All while going 287.5 mph. It takes two good crew members to manage that kind of mass moving that fast. When an “Uh Oh” happens it takes two well trained, cognizant, understanding, intelligent crew members to work through a problem and get the aircraft safely back. Put a crimp into any of this on a good day and it takes away from the best possible outcome you can ask for.

Despite all the conjecture, and a true lack of any “Official” published data, I wouldn’t comment on the crews performance until all the facts are in. Yes I have my opinion, and for the most part align with others in the business here. But I'll wait as I would like to know what happened and take away any lesson that can be learned.

Having said that. . . . And not to Hijack the thread......
This is a link from the NTSB on the Learjet crash last year at Teterboro.  If you want to listen and watch something that will make you question a persons thought process, a companies hiring practice and work policy, training, lack of situational awareness, procedure, and a lack of piloting then this is it.

I want to say that you should be amazed that something like this could happen, but unfortunately there are many more out there like this and companies that think its ok to hire people that act this way.

And No, the final report has not been released on this particular accident, but the video speaks volumes.

https://youtu.be/67Yw87l3Atw

I know that crash without looking. Shocking the captain failed on so many levels. He was supposed to be at the controls but would not take them till the.last seconds.

[save]

Out of curiosity, how many revolutions of manual trim do you need from full down trim to full up on a 737 ?

[Busher]

Out of curiosity, how many revolutions of manual trim do you need from full down trim to full up on a 737 ?

250

Boeing believes that the flight crew should have the ability to manually alter trim should a number of cascading failures occur.

Whatever the reason for Boeing continuing with this older style technology, many flight crews have learnt to “hate “ the spinning trim wheels.  They are noisy and distracting, not to mention dangerous if a flight crew accidently leaves the handle in the extended position; there is a reason that they are called “knee knockers”. 

[Vraciu]

Yup. The G-IV outfit that crashed at Hanscom had gotten IS-BAO Stage 2 recognition. That was another cluster.

There’s not an eyeroll big enough for that one, brother.  Great example. 

[Puma44]

Puma said "The learning curve as a new pilot in the 737 was, for me, nearly vertical for the first few months."

With all respect Sir I have to call you on this one. I spent some time as a line check airman and former jet fighter pilots were a joy to line indoc. You had long developed the feel for a jet wing and jet engine behaviour. I bet the 737 felt like a gutless slug after the phantom. I never flew military jets but would have loved to try one. But sadly an airforce pilot's job in Canada is 4 to 5 years of flying followed by 20 more on a desk; hence I never applied.

To expand on my “near vertical learning curve” comment, even after a year and half in the 1900, I was still learning the intricacies of the airline industry, flight attendants, and learning to be a chameleon with a wide variety of Captains and “techniques”, some of which came no where near company procedures or flight manual procedures.  Personality adaption with some was quite interesting.  I agree with your assessment of fighter pilots and ability to fly swept wing jets.  At my crew base for nearly twenty years we had a unique source of new hires from nearby Luke AFB.  At first it was a steady stream of F-15 guys, then F-16 guys; affectionately referred to as the “Luke Mafia”.  The very common issue with some of these single seat guys was to integrate them into a crew concept.  They were so hard wired to doing it all without someone else in the jet, there were challenges with being receptive to input from the other pilot up front.  Yeah, they could all fly the jet but, in the 737, 9 Gs and 500 knots wasn’t available to fix and an energy management issue.

Interesting observation, Navy F-18 guys all seemed to be very receptive and open to critique.

I assume you’re Canadian, eh?  Spent many days flying the T-bird and Six in Canada.  We were always treated like royalty and it was greatly appreciated.

[Toad]

learning to be a chameleon with a wide variety of Captains and “techniques”,

Hah! I've used that same description!

Rest of the post is on the money as well.

[Vraciu]

To expand on my “near vertical learning curve” comment, even after a year and half in the 1900, I was still learning the intricacies of the airline industry, flight attendants, and learning to be a chameleon with a wide variety of Captains and “techniques”, some of which came no where near company procedures or flight manual procedures.  Personality adaption with some was quite interesting.  I agree with your assessment of fighter pilots and ability to fly swept wing jets.  At my crew base for nearly twenty years we had a unique source of new hires from nearby Luke AFB.  At first it was a steady stream of F-15 guys, then F-16 guys; affectionately referred to as the “Luke Mafia”.  The very common issue with some of these single seat guys was to integrate them into a crew concept.  They were so hard wired to doing it all without someone else in the jet, there were challenges with being receptive to input from the other pilot up front.  Yeah, they could all fly the jet but, in the 737, 9 Gs and 500 knots wasn’t available to fix and an energy management issue.

Interesting observation, Navy F-18 guys all seemed to be very receptive and open to critique.

I assume you’re Canadian, eh?  Spent many days flying the T-bird and Six in Canada.  We were always treated like royalty and it was greatly appreciated.

My dad was a Captain at Southwest for 25 years until he died too young.   Your assessment is almost word for word what he once told me. 

 

[Puma44]

250

Boeing believes that the flight crew should have the ability to manually alter trim should a number of cascading failures occur.

Whatever the reason for Boeing continuing with this older style technology, many flight crews have learnt to “hate “ the spinning trim wheels.  They are noisy and distracting, not to mention dangerous if a flight crew accidently leaves the handle in the extended position; there is a reason that they are called “knee knockers”. 

250, where did you find that info?  Almost sounds like one of those bored days waiting at the gate for a release and looking for something to explore. 😊

Yeah, the knee knocker was a painful first time lesson for everyone. I managed to only do it once, luckily.

[Busher]

250, where did you find that info?  Almost sounds like one of those bored days waiting at the gate for a release and looking for something to explore. 😊

Yeah, the knee knocker was a painful first time lesson for everyone. I managed to only do it once, luckily.

Your knee all better?

I don't know why I remember it was 250 on the 727.. that was eons ago. I should not have been so definite, I assumed it was likely the same number for the 737. I'll do some research with former FO's that now fly for WestJet to see if I can confirm or correct the number.

[Toad]

Puma, Busher

I did actually LOL when I found this:

http://www.flaps2approach.com/journal/2013/11/22/b737-throttle-quadrant-trim-wheels-and-trim-indicator-tabs.html

Out of interest, in manual trim, 250 revolutions of the trim wheels are necessary to move the trim tab indicators from full up to full down.

Busher, you've got quite a memory!

The guy that built that page is/was building a 737-800 simulator...for himself! Obviously digging deep to get the details correct too. Pretty amazing!

[Busher]

Toad said "Busher, you've got quite a memory!"

Only when its something about an airplane. Just ask my wife.

[Puma44]

Your knee all better?

I don't know why I remember it was 250 on the 727.. that was eons ago. I should not have been so definite, I assumed it was likely the same number for the 737. I'll do some research with former FO's that now fly for WestJet to see if I can confirm or correct the number.

Yeah, it’s sort of all better, kinda.

That 250 number reminded me of some of the “stump the dummy” questions that USAF Phantom SEFEs (check airman equivalent) would ask occasionally.  One was, “How many rings on the trim button (on top of the stick)?”  Everyone knew the answer was “13”.  Whenever asked, “I would reply that as long as the trim worked, I was happy”.  Another one was, “How many holes in the splitter vanes (the ramp looking contraptions at the front of the engine inlets)?”  That one was “Who cares and who has that much time on their hands?”

I can just see sitting at the gate with a three hours ground stop, bored to tears, and saying to the other pilot, “Let’s roll this all the way to the stop, reverse it, and see how many times the knee knocker stripe goes round and round”.  OK, that took up four minutes, what next?

727!  Wow!  You’ve got some serious classic jet time.  Very nice!

[Mister Fork]

Your knee all better?

I don't know why I remember it was 250 on the 727.. that was eons ago. I should not have been so definite, I assumed it was likely the same number for the 737. I'll do some research with former FO's that now fly for WestJet to see if I can confirm or correct the number.

ok, this is weird. Where do you live Busher? I know several WestJet pilots as well. I can also ask my bud who flys for Canada North.

Fork in Calgary