Jan 06

[Busher]

Interesting that you brought up human rights abuses.  I don't think anyone disputes them however there are similarities with China and the USA in this respect.

hypocrisy

noun
the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

• USA - "War on Terror" - Indefinite detention without trial - Guantanamo - Allegations of torture and arguments that it violates the 5th and 14th amendments.  Amnesty International states it is against human rights.
• China - "People's war on terror" -  Indefinite detention without trial - Various camps.  Amnesty International states it is against human rights.

What makes the American version acceptable?  Is it a matter of scale?  It is not OK for either entity to do it.  We have a similar situation in Australia where some people (refugees) have been locked up for 8 years +.  It is not OK.  Send them back or let them in but don't imprison indefinitely without trial.

I am afraid I have to agree with Fess. The United States has amazing documents including the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But sadly to preach about the atrocities committed by other nations when for example, children are ripped from their parents and put in cages, is intellectually corrupt.

[Arlo]

I am afraid I have to agree with Fess. The United States has amazing documents including the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But sadly to preach about the atrocities committed by other nations when for example, children are ripped from their parents and put in cages, is intellectually corrupt.

There seems to be a dramatic disassociation between ideals and examples that I feel requires addressing.

[RotBaron]

Do you guys here talking about ripping children from parents and put in “cages” know that practice is an Obama policy?

If you tried to enter other countries illegally would the potential consequences cross your mind?

Try entering China or Iran illegally.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/illegal-entry/chart.php

[Gman]

Interesting that you brought up human rights abuses.  I don't think anyone disputes them however there are similarities with China and the USA in this respect.

hypocrisy

noun
the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

• USA - "War on Terror" - Indefinite detention without trial - Guantanamo - Allegations of torture and arguments that it violates the 5th and 14th amendments.  Amnesty International states it is against human rights.
• China - "People's war on terror" -  Indefinite detention without trial - Various camps.  Amnesty International states it is against human rights.

What makes the American version acceptable?  Is it a matter of scale?  It is not OK for either entity to do it.  We have a similar situation in Australia where some people (refugees) have been locked up for 8 years +.  It is not OK.  Send them back or let them in but don't imprison indefinitely without trial.

Not just scale, but degree.  I disagree with the Guantanamo imprisonments and mistreatment, but to compare it to what China does is more than a stretch.  Stress positions and water boarding versus mutilation, forced organ donation while conscious, mass executions, forced steriliztion, starvation, and piles of other actual medieval like tortures...a bit of a difference from what the USA currently does and has done to Gitmo prisoners.

[Gman]

I am afraid I have to agree with Fess. The United States has amazing documents including the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But sadly to preach about the atrocities committed by other nations when for example, children are ripped from their parents and put in cages, is intellectually corrupt.

The "children ripped from parents".  Whose fault is that, the people who ILLEGALY enter the USA, or the US government?  If I commit a felony in the USA, my children will be ripped from me as well (if I had any), and be placed in protective custody/child services while I go to prison.  Where is the "but the children" cries for the local criminals?  What is the US supposed to do, build special prisons for those that illegally enter the country, which can house both children and adults together? 

Both the children and their parents/criminals who illegally enter the USA are NOT TORUTURED.  They aren't having their guts ripped apart while awake to fund an organ harvesting operation.  They aren't imprisoned for speaking their minds politically. They aren't tortured and imprisoned for their religious beliefs.  They aren't forcibly sterilized.  See the difference?

[DmonSlyr]

Interesting that you brought up human rights abuses.  I don't think anyone disputes them however there are similarities with China and the USA in this respect.

hypocrisy

noun
the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.

• USA - "War on Terror" - Indefinite detention without trial - Guantanamo - Allegations of torture and arguments that it violates the 5th and 14th amendments.  Amnesty International states it is against human rights.
• China - "People's war on terror" -  Indefinite detention without trial - Various camps.  Amnesty International states it is against human rights.

What makes the American version acceptable?  Is it a matter of scale?  It is not OK for either entity to do it.  We have a similar situation in Australia where some people (refugees) have been locked up for 8 years +.  It is not OK.  Send them back or let them in but don't imprison indefinitely without trial.

And yet, you and the others who are severely mislead attack Trump, a 4 year president and only time serving in government making military decisions. Who didn't go to war in the middle east enter a new nation for war, and has helped create peace deals in those countries. While you sit here and protect and defend the very people who were in those positions in government making those decisions, who are in still in government today trying to take down Trump for exposing them.

Hylocrisy is a crazy thing.

China only got big because of America. We gave them a lot and helped them grow tremendously. All you people do is attack America while you let what Gman told you go by the way side, you don't even understand how good you have it.

You say "America is soo expensive". Well you know what, that's what happens when a country is forced into strong regulations and working practices, while other countries can manipulate their currency, enslave their population and use cheap resources to create cheaper products. We've put all of these high costs on to American business while letting the world undercut us, then our politicians sold us out with trade deals so business can simply leave and go sell their products in places where they don't have to deal with American standards and regulations. Its totally Bullcrap, and it's why Trump is right to get our manufacturing back.

[RotBaron]

^ just in case you go there, I had a long time gf born in Thailand when her parents fled Pol Pot and eventually made there way here (legally.)

We have friends now for several years who came here as refugees from Sudan.

I know their life stories well, yes it’s a small sample...I also have 3 close friends in Homeland Security and they have differing views - which gives me many viewpoints to think from...

[CptTrips]

Meh.  We have a lot of work to do to live up to our high ideals.  But I don't have to think too hard to decide I'd rather be here than a citizen of China.  No brainer.

Even during Trump's administration.   

(Which thankfully will be a single term.  Though it just seemed longer.  )

[Busher]

Do you guys here talking about ripping children from parents and put in “cages” know that practice is an Obama policy?

If you tried to enter other countries illegally would the potential consequences cross your mind?

Try entering China or Iran illegally.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/illegal-entry/chart.php

OK, you decide to vacation in Italy (post pandemic of course) but when you meet Customs and Immigration, they decide you don't look savory so they take your children and boot you out on the next flight.
I don't care if you try to enter legally or illegally, this act is barbarous.
You're not going to gain any points trying to convince me that the USA is some shining star of civil rights (at least beyond the usual platitudes).

[Chris79]

OK, you decide to vacation in Italy (post pandemic of course) but when you meet Customs and Immigration, they decide you don't look savory so they take your children and boot you out on the next flight.
I don't care if you try to enter legally or illegally, this act is barbarous.
You're not going to gain any points trying to convince me that the USA is some shining star of civil rights (at least beyond the usual platitudes).

Not quite, they would send you and your family back on the first plane out, as would the U.S. There is a big difference between illegally entering a country and being denied entry. If it were up to me the kids would be dropped off at the consulate or embassy of the child’s home country and the Adults get to break rocks in Alaska for 5 years.

[Busher]

Not quite, they would send you and your family back on the first plane out, as would the U.S. There is a big difference between illegally entering a country and being denied entry. If it were up to me the kids would be dropped off at the consulate or embassy of the child’s home country and the Adults get to break rocks in Alaska for 5 years.

I was using an example. There is no way on this earth that anyone can justify taking children from their parents.
And sorry to see that Trump raised the level of illegal immigration to this level of hatred. Maybe you would enjoy just shooting them as they try t enter.

[RotBaron]

OK, you decide to vacation in Italy (post pandemic of course) but when you meet Customs and Immigration, they decide you don't look savory so they take your children and boot you out on the next flight.
I don't care if you try to enter legally or illegally, this act is barbarous.
You're not going to gain any points trying to convince me that the USA is some shining star of civil rights (at least beyond the usual platitudes).

 

Wow

Can you name some other countries that are “shining stars” when you break their laws while there either legally or illegally please? We have due process even for non-citizens that break our laws. 

[FESS67]

You say "America is soo expensive". Well you know what, that's what happens when a country is forced into strong regulations and working practices, while other countries can manipulate their currency, enslave their population and use cheap resources to create cheaper products. We've put all of these high costs on to American business while letting the world undercut us, then our politicians sold us out with trade deals so business can simply leave and go sell their products in places where they don't have to deal with American standards and regulations. Its totally Bullcrap, and it's why Trump is right to get our manufacturing back.

It is not just America that suffers from this.  The Western or 'developed' world all feel this pain.  When you say "We've put all these high costs on to American business" do you have a 'We' in mind or is it a collective 'The USA screwed itself'?

Was it the unions demanding better wages and conditions for the workers?  Was it the workers themselves demanding better wages and conditions so they could live the dream?  I am pretty damn sure it was not industry itself because they understand the balance book and know when they are getting squeezed out of the game.  We cannot however allow industry to rule the game because they would act in a manner that would not care too much about workers rights.  That is why we have unions right?

Truth is China is going through the same curve the USA went through and in time they will be complaining that some African nation is taking their jobs.....etc etc.  Global economy and you cannot run and hide from it you need to find a way to compete.  Your way may no longer be in steel or ship building, the motor industry or coal mining.  Perhaps the USA needs to focus more on tourism (post Covid obviously), or food and wine, or keep pushing technology.  Things change and you have to adapt and change with it or be left behind.

Look at the UK.  During the American civil war their textile industry was massive.  Now it is pretty much non existent.  Same for steel.  Car manufacturing.....the list is long.

[Chris79]

I was using an example. There is no way on this earth that anyone can justify taking children from their parents.
And sorry to see that Trump raised the level of illegal immigration to this level of hatred. Maybe you would enjoy just shooting them as they try t enter.

Straw man anyone. The problem with most leftists is they tend to lack a logical thought process and lead with emotion. You made the false assumption that I’m a Trump supporter, and that I hate illegal immigrants. Personally I think Trump is a bombastic fool, as for illegal immigration, although I don’t necessarily hate the immigrants themselves, it’s the act of which I detest. If you want to stop an act, you must make the risk of engaging upon on that act not worthy of any particular benefit there of. Obviously what little penalties involved now have little or no impact.

[SIM]

And sorry to see that Trump raised the level of illegal immigration to this level of hatred.

I'd like to see you prove that statement.

How is someone illegally crossing the border any different from someone breaking into your home? They break the laws of this nation. That means they are criminal upon arrival.

I couldn't care less if adults are separated from children as a consequence of breaking the law. Its far better treatment than if I caught them breaking into my home.