The Great Unwinding

[Shuffler]

what makes you think people that move to other jobs to make more money are getting handouts.  nobody wants to work at a burger joint because it's only 30 hours a week so they dont pay you benefits, compare that to a warehouse that pays more get overtime and you now get insurance and vacation.  how is that a handout?

had a friend that wanted somebody to work for him checking trucks in and out.  he was paying 850 a week.  sounds like a reasonable job.  except he wanted them working 12 hour shifts six days a week.  that's like 350 bucks below minimum wage.  told him good luck in finding somebody.  he  forced a couple of guys to work that shift and they quit.  they were making more money working 8 hours a day 5 days a week.  the extra 350 bucks is not gonna make him broke.  but now he does that job himself.  he's dumb and greedy.


semp

What makes you think they are moving to better jobs? We are talking about people who plan to fail and have kids anyway, and work in a McDonalds. They want more money to raise a family. Flipping burgers is not that job, it is for high school kids to make an extra buck.

If they could get a better job, they would have already and not begged for more money flipping burgers.

[Spikes]

Either way, do you work at all?

Yes, don't know where else I would've gotten my 6.5 years of related experience.

[Arlo]

[Eagler]

Guess some don't understand that raising the minimum wage raises prices on everything for everyone so there isn't any real getting ahead...cost is just added to the price...

I guess if I had stayed a dishwasher at steak and ale or a busboy at red lobster both high school summer jobs I should expect those jobs to support a family?

Nope - they shouldn't be nor expected to be

It's called education, hard work and a good work ethic...not a guaranteed existence..

Eagler

[Arlo]

Guess some people don't understand that not raising the minimum wage never kept prices from rising. Guess some people don't understand that more and more adults (some married-some with children - some both) work as dishwashers at Steak and Ale or busboys at Red Lobster and they aren't high school summer jobs (and if they are working there 40 hrs a week they should be able to survive on that). Guess some people don't know that there aren't large numbers of manufacturing jobs like there once were. It's called civility, compassion and morality.

[CptTrips]

I'm ambivalent on minimum wage.  However, if the nation decides to have one, it makes logical sense it should track inflation and increases in worker productivity.

I don't have the research handy, but I believe I've seen that if minimum wage had tracked productivity and inflation since late 60's then the number should more realistically be around $24/hr.

You could convince me to dump it, but you could also convince me to dump every BS tax deduction scheme out there for corporations, and subsidies for farmer to not plant, and including the tens of billions we give the petroleum industry to be so kind as to explore for oil....because I guess the tens of billions in profits they make each year are insufficient motivation for them to explore with their own retained earnings.

[Arlo]

[Spikes]

...not a guaranteed existence..

lol

[Brooke]

Minimum-wage laws are generally harmful to the people intended to be helped with minimum-wage laws.  This as judged by economists who studied data on the issue (not just pontification).

The reason is that, while wages go up for the entry-level folks still employed, it results in some folks losing their jobs.  So, good for some, bad for others, but ends up being a negative as averaged over all workers directly affected.

[Brooke]

[about teacher wages]

In Washington State, average teacher salary is $65k.  This is not including pension after retirement or benefits while employed.  That is for 9 months, and more vacation days than most US workers get.  For 12 months, that is an annualized rate of $87k/year, plus pension and benefits.

Salaries for school administrators are higher.

Spending per pupil per year in the US went from $2300 in 1980 (which is $7100 in 2019 dollars) to $15,600 in 2019.  That is a 120% increase in real terms (i.e., inflation adjusted).

[Arlo]

Minimum-wage laws are generally harmful to the people intended to be helped with minimum-wage laws.  This as judged by economists who studied data on the issue (not just pontification).

The reason is that, while wages go up for the entry-level folks still employed, it results in some folks losing their jobs.  So, good for some, bad for others, but ends up being a negative as averaged over all workers directly affected.

https://www.businessinsider.com/debunking-common-arguments-against-15-minimum-wage-2021-2

[DmonSlyr]

Guess some people don't understand that not raising the minimum wage never kept prices from rising. Guess some people don't understand that more and more adults (some married-some with children - some both) work as dishwashers at Steak and Ale or busboys at Red Lobster and they aren't high school summer jobs (and if they are working there 40 hrs a week they should be able to survive on that). Guess some people don't know that there aren't large numbers of manufacturing jobs like there once were. It's called civility, compassion and morality.

You aren't considering that person had to agree to work there for that wage. That person applied for and accepted the position. Now, where that person is in life and their decisions they have made to get there is a different story.

You also aren't considering how much extra in employer taxes that business has to pay as well. If they then have to fire someone because they can't afford the forced increased expense of $2 an hour + extra payroll taxes. It hurts the business as now less people are working to help customers or build the business. Less people now have the opportunity to work. People out of prison and younger kids with no experience now have a harder chances of getting a job. I also think that it's very challenging for companies to realize that it is their job to increase wages inorder to find the best employees in the market. That is really the key to having a successful business. In the end, you will always have businesses trying to get the best value for their buck, but you will also have HR people who put people in earning blocks and it remains comparable with the "industry" no matter how good or bad the company is doing. That limits the companies potential to find the best talent for their business because they don't have a competitive advantage for hiring.

The 'society' simply cannot paint all business with a broad brush when it comes to payroll due to every single business operating a different way. I'll say it again and say it until the dogs come home. The #1 thing that increases prices are high taxes. Taxes increase costs for every single vendor you work with. This means you have to physically increase prices to maintain your profit margin. This means all of their consumers pay more. It never fails. If they cut employer payroll taxes just a bit, they would be able to make up for the forced increase in minimum wage. But you see, they never want to incentivize and no one really wins.

[Arlo]

You aren't considering that person had to agree to work there for that wage. That person applied for and accepted the position. Now, where that person is in life and their decisions they have made to get there is a different story.

You also aren't considering how much extra in employer taxes that business has to pay as well. If they then have to fire someone because they can't afford the forced increased expense of $2 an hour + extra payroll taxes. It hurts the business as now less people are working to help customers or build the business. Less people now have the opportunity to work. People out of prison and younger kids with no experience now have a harder chances of getting a job. I also think that it's very challenging for companies to realize that it is their job to increase wages inorder to find the best employees in the market. That is really the key to having a successful business. In the end, you will always have businesses trying to get the best value for their buck, but you will also have HR people who put people in earning blocks and it remains comparable with the "industry" no matter how good or bad the company is doing. That limits the companies potential to find the best talent for their business because they don't have a competitive advantage for hiring.

The 'society' simply cannot paint all business with a broad brush when it comes to payroll due to every single business operating a different way. I'll say it again and say it until the dogs come home. The #1 thing that increases prices are high taxes. Taxes increase costs for every single vendor you work with. This means you have to physically increase prices to maintain your profit margin. This means all of their consumers pay more. It never fails. If they cut employer payroll taxes just a bit, they would be able to make up for the forced increase in minimum wage. But you see, they never want to incentivize and no one really wins.

You're being rather presumptuous concerning my consideration. You seem to also presume that everyone has a shot at a better job (from, apparently, a long list of jobs of various wages and/or benefits), either when applying or later. Such is not so. When it comes down to it, employers should pay what the labor is worth. If the labor becomes worthless, so does the product. That employer is cutting their own throat.

And lastly, a consumer based economy requires consumers that can afford to buy products. You insinuated such above. Especially products that are necessities. Where do these consumers come from, sir?

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2005/11/04/Wall-Street-Can-consumers-keep-keeping-the-economy-afloat/stories/200511040199

[guncrasher]

What makes you think they are moving to better jobs? We are talking about people who plan to fail and have kids anyway, and work in a McDonalds. They want more money to raise a family. Flipping burgers is not that job, it is for high school kids to make an extra buck.

If they could get a better job, they would have already and not begged for more money flipping burgers.

why do you think McDonald's cant find enough people?  or burger king as a matter of fact.  nobody wants to work there anymore.  around here employees are in short supply and they dont have to beg for more money.  employers beg employees to come work for them.  department stores have employees that look so young they probably dont have a driver's license.  ever talked to one of them.  they're happy, very helpful. I have spoken to some of them, they're glad they dont have to work at 3.35 an hour like I did when I was in highschool. they're saving for college or get a car, they have dreams and they all say I wont be here forever.

they're parents are making more money, housing is in short supply due to how many people have moved here.  there's companies offering 1k or 1.5 sign in bonus payed after 2 months.  employees are not worried anymore in the sense I cant afford to quit.  employers are worried that they cant afford to lose employees so do what they can to keep them.

employees know they can just quit and get a new job a couple of days later if they arent treated right.  that what I see in several local groups I belong to.  people networking or talking about companies that wont treat employees right.  they are trying to do their jobs right, but they arent afraid to quit anymore.

my mother never worked higher than minimum wage, after highschool I never worked minimum wage.  my kids after high school have never worked minimum wage.  on the other hand I have never looked down on anybody working minimum wage.  you got a job, you work hard, you cool with me.

next time before you say people like to live on hand outs, please research how much money they get on handouts.  around here you are lucky if you get 50 bucks a month, unless you have children and even then you wont get much.  you can get food stamps but that's about it.  section 8 housing hasnt been opened in like 6 years.  will take you probably 10 years to get into it.  hardly you can call that living on handouts.


semp

[nopoop]

2019 article.

New American way of life, get on board.

For a guy and his girlfriend with two kids, all you have to do is follow these proven steps.
1. dont marry her !!!!
2. always use your moms address to get your mail.
3. The guy buys a house.
4. the guy rents out the house to his girlfriend and two kids.
5. Section 8 will pay 900 a month for a 3 bedroom home.
6. girlfriend signs up for obama care so the guy doesnt have to pay  for family insurance.
7. girl gets to go to college for free being a single mother.
8. girl gets a free cell phone
9. guy moves into the house and uses his moms address for mail
10. giirl and the guy file separately on their tax forms so both claim head of household and  get 1800 a piece credit
11. girlfriend claims disability for having a bad back or ?? And gets 1400 a month from SSI
This plan is totally legal  and is being executed by a whole lot of people.

A married couple with a stay at home mom gets 0 dollars.
An unmarried couple with a stay at home mom nets 16200 disability
10800 in free housing
6000 free obama care
4800 free utilities
6000 pell grant money to spend
plus 12000 a year in college tuition
plus 8800 tax benifit

I have a cousin inlaw that played this game, didn't work for 20 years, three kids plus alimony