Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable

[LCADolby]

These kids will go to a bar and spend $100 flat for a few drinks in a matter of hours, but you tell them a video game is $15 a month and their heads explode.

     True AF

 

[AKIron]

Back in the jet sims of the 80's and 90's the AIM-120 had a much greater range than it does in DCS. Probably commie propaganda. Anyhow, it will likely be very challenging to get kills with the Sparrow in the Phantom.

[The Fugitive]

Here is where the "state of the art" combat sim has currently reached.  Some complain about the price ($60 pre-release and $80 after pre-release discount), but when 1/48 scale plastic model kits are around the same price it doesn't seem quite as expensive.

Closest you can come to owning a real F-4 Phantom (not to mention firing ordinance from one):

First let me say it is VERY pretty, but after that, I dont have much else good to say about it. $60-$80 for a single plane, I have been able to fly almost 100 different planes over the last 20 years, doing the math thats $36 per plane, including bombers, scout, and supply planes. Not to mention vehicles that are available.

Then the learning curve, an 800 page manual ??? Im guessing the other planes dont have such big manuals, but why would I spend all that time to learn to operate a single plane? I do have a life outside a game. Im sure some of the info can be transferred from plane to planes, but that is still a lot of time just learning to fly never mind fight.

Fighting, he called it dogfighting but  LOL!!!! really? hold a track a few seconds and "fox1!" Great fight!  LOL!!!

Then there are terrains and other add-ons that you have to buy, more money gone for little return.

No, the time and money is a waste for me. I spend far less and get to spend a few hours a week battling other PEOPLE in many different fighters and bombers defending bases or taking bases and on an odd whim get my butt handed to me multiple times in a tank. DCS is nothing more than Microsoft Flight Simulator with the occasional chances to blow static targets up, with the odd chance of running into a real player looking to fight you.

The time investment, money, and the boredom just makes it not worth it for me. It just blows me away those players that have left the excitement of the action we have going on in Aces High for lack of action in DCS. But, it is very pretty! 

[AKIron]

I'm going to disagree with you about DCS and MSFS being the same. DCS has far more realistic flight physics than MSFS, IMO.

But, MSFS is prettier.

[AKIron]

My brother, who flew jets for American, helped me set up some emergency situations in MSFS. I was able to handle them with ease. I don't know which of us was more skeptical then of the flight modeling, he with thousands of hours in jets or me with 45 hours in single engine planes.

He had me practicing emergency procedures in the DCS Huey, which he flew in the Army, and I struggled. We both agree, much more realistic.

The "Challenges" in MSFS are ridiculously easy. Sure, you're trying for a high score, but it should not be so easy to do some of that stuff. Borders on arcadish.

[CptTrips]

Different strokes for different folks. 

Luckily the flightsim world is still producing product that span a range of costs\fidelity.  Pick from WT to DCS, whichever works best for you.

They all don't need to become clones of each other.  It's good to have a healthy diversity of options and competition.

I do believe there is potentially a larger market players who would find AH's complexity the optimal trade-off sweet-spot rather than the extreme-end like DCS which can see a little over the top.  A lot of people have families and jobs and are looking for a balance something more advanced than WT but not to the DCS fetish level.
 
That still begs the question then, why can't AH capture that larger potential pool of customers? 

[AKIron]

I was disappointed in MSFS 2020. X-Plane 11 has better physics, less better visuals. X-Plane 12 is out now I think. I'm unlikely to buy it.

[AKIron]

i know a guy that does that in the hornet

Think I mentioned before that I tried that and failed spectacularly. Takes some serious skill to do that.

[RichardDarkwood]

First let me say it is VERY pretty, but after that, I dont have much else good to say about it. $60-$80 for a single plane, I have been able to fly almost 100 different planes over the last 20 years,

on a false flight model

[The Fugitive]

on a false flight model

I dont know about that. This one says their model is correct, and that one over there says their model is correct. Whos to know for sure. I do know that every film I watch of DSC and it show's an exterior view the planes look like they are balanced on a needle at the COG. The planes dont so much roll, but pivot on a point under the belly at the COG point.

Ive never flown a real P51, but Hitech has and Im sure he did his best to get it as close as he could. Either way, spending hours flying around a DCS world LOOKING for a fight isnt my idea of fun. Even if their flight model was perfect to real life it still would get boring pretty darn quick.

[CptTrips]

I do know that every film I watch of DSC and it show's an exterior view the planes look like they are balanced on a needle at the COG. The planes dont so much roll, but pivot on a point under the belly at the COG point.

[AKIron]

Is there something wrong with that? Looks normal to me. Apart from the lunatic behind the stick. 

Now I understand. An AH comparison.

[CptTrips]

Is there something wrong with that? Looks normal to me. Apart from the lunatic behind the stick. 

Now I understand. An AH comparison.

Just to demonstrate that when a camera is in follow, fixed to CoG, they always look like they are balanced on the head of a pin.  There is nothing wrong with DCS having that effect too, it is a side effect of the camera reference.  As can be seen in this AH example as well. 

It looks different when fixed camera and fly-past.  A camera effect not a flaw in the FM.

[Tumor]

I dont know about that. This one says their model is correct, and that one over there says their model is correct. Whos to know for sure. I do know that every film I watch of DSC and it show's an exterior view the planes look like they are balanced on a needle at the COG. The planes dont so much roll, but pivot on a point under the belly at the COG point.

Ive never flown a real P51, but Hitech has and Im sure he did his best to get it as close as he could. Either way, spending hours flying around a DCS world LOOKING for a fight isnt my idea of fun. Even if their flight model was perfect to real life it still would get boring pretty darn quick.

From my POV... all the Warbids in DCS feel like they fall off their wings way too easy, except maybe the Spit (and the K4 isn't all that bad).  The Pony is absolutely the worst.  ~No~ other Flightsim produces this "feeling", at least not so glaringly.  Eagle Dynamics states (paraphrased) that they go to great lengths to make the flight model as accurate as possible.  I have no way of knowing one way or the other, but... the way the P-51 flies in DCS makes me wonder how it was successful at much of anything outside of going real fast real far in WWII.  I did read an account of some Luftwaffe guy who said Spits worried them, but when they knew it was P-51s, they at least had a chance.   

So, until some P-51/K4/D9/A8/Spit real pilots chime in regarding DCS, we're sorta stuck with what we've got for any given flight Sim.  Now, I've heard a real life pilots for F-16s, F-18s & A-10s make these comments.  The 16/18 guys said it was pretty dang close.  The A-10 dude said the real plane was far more forgiving than the Sim one.  And I think that's the crux of the problem here.... DCS is a Jet Sim, and they do it well.  The WW2 part was, so I'm told, sort of a "failed start" they decided to stick with due to customer expectations (that's the short/easy way to put it).  Regardless, all the flight models for all the sims work pretty great for where they are and what they do.   

Oh, and looking for a flight isn't really hard in DCS these days,... well, Prime-Time.  Both the highest populated WW2 servers have bases pretty close together.  The Euro time frame might even be better than AH now (I don't know the current AH numbers).

[Banshee7]

DCS is a Jet Sim, and they do it well.

This is what I'll be focusing on when I hop into it hopefully next week (waiting on the pro clip for the Track IR I bought).  I'm debating whether or not to buy FC3.  I kinda feel like it takes away from the very challenge I wanted to try.  But, then again, I might get in over my head and wind up buying it anyway lol.