WWII MP Flight Sim from 2D to 3D - Current

[Animl-AW]

Perspective.

The first years of AW was 2D graphics that simulated 3D
IMO, back in band camp, the concept immersion of how the sim was played over-shadowed the graphics. Fun outweighed graphics. So some of us old dogs are used to tolerating graphics for this concept, we've over-looked quite a bit and are conditioned to do so.

Today the massively Multiplayer concept is sacrificed for high-end graphics.

I've always viewed AW as the very trunk of the tree. When AH came along it greatly advanced the original AW concept. It became the next level in the trunk of the tree. Other sims attempted to beat out the AW concept and their life span varied, and then into the abyss. As sims progressed and we move up from the trunk the MP concept starts to branch off into thinner branches, the least they resemble the trunk of the tree. They are thinner in concept.

The industry has sadly moved into how much can I empty your wallet for better graphics, lacking a fun concept. Even though AH uses minimum AI, as did AW in drones, IL-2, one of the leading WWII sims, punched us with AI, and DCS drowned us in AI. They have moved us away from the original WWII multiplayer combat flight sim concept, the trunk of the tree.
<IMO> "If ya can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle em with BS."

Below I found vids that showed the progression of 2d graphics that simulated 3D, into full blown 3D with higher resolutions.

I first found AW in 89 at 29 yrs old. Prior to 89, I thought I was just too old to be playing video games, I had "adult responsibilities". After a death of a GF in 87 I decided I'm going to do what ever makes me happy, however ridiculous. AW set that hook deep. My computer got 12 fps so game play was not doing well. But I held onto the game until I got a better computer, playing it off and on in misery anyway. Then as time passed Windows moved from 3.1 to Windows 95 and computers were just in the window of fast enough, AW was about to take hold on AOL servers. Suddenly the crowds came in and the rest is history. It was purely fun over graphics.

Open the vids in windows to see comments. rarely did anyone bash AW.

This is what I first saw when I found Air Warrior (DOS).


I believe this is AW for Windows


 Air Warrior 3D on Gamestorm


Air Warrior 3 promo, someone claimed in cmments that it's AW2, I forgot the difference, except maybe terrain. Pay attention to the credits, many will recognize names that play(ed) AH. 1999-ish


I don't have any AH1 videos, but as AW hit EA.com death AH came along and picked up where AW left off.


Then AH3 came along with VR


This video was posted 1 day ago. IN COMPARISON. IL-2 graphics are not much better than AH3. In fact, IMO, they are quite equal. HOWEVER, IL-2 seems to have more of a gamey feeling to me.


I think AH has the best clouds

I do not recognize DCS as a WWII MP Flight Sim, and there's not much dog-fighting, being rated as "poor game play". But it is high-end graphics.

[CptTrips]

Why wasn't this kept in the O'Club?




First, you are looking at IL2 1946 there.  That is a 2008 game.

AHIII graphics can not compare with IL2 GB, IMHO.  And DCS is superior to IL2 GB graphics, IMHO.


Second, DCS is not a WWII MP.  Never has tried to be.  Those current warbirds aren’t really even their planes.  Those are the pieces of the failed Oleg Maddox WWII DCS kickstarter that he abandoned that ED picked up and tried to finish are best they could to avoid seeing a bunch of customers screwed over.  You won’t begin to see ED’s true vision of WWII until their own PTO stuff starts coming out. Even then, their server design is not intended to be a permanent MMOG server.  That is not how it was designed.  I think they are slowly moving in that direction maybe, but that was not their original design goal.  Their servers were design to support squadron size training scale as low cost field trainers for National Guard and Foreign military services.  (I suspect the majority of their revenue is military trainers.)

So like 4-32 clients is more like what their original design intent was.  That is why I’ve said currently, DCS can not, by design, provide a AH style MMOG experience.  I’ve said that repeatedly over the last year as I’ve dug deeper into understanding the server architecture.  Some players, through heroic efforts of scripting and support, have almost pounded a square peg into a round hole.  Enigma’s CW was easily filling 80 players every night with a line waiting to get in.  I estimate with a better server design there was interest to at least fill a 120 player arena.  As time goes by, ED seems to be waking up to these desires and the server has been improving.  Maybe when they going in to convert the server to multi-threading next they will make more redesign changes.  Who knows what the future holds. IL2 server architecture seems to have the same limitations. 

However, AH’s capability are largely wasted today.  It can handle 500 players, it just can’t attract 500 players.  AH numbers are starting to float around 70-120. I see nothing that would suggest that trend has meaningfully reversed.  Soon the numbers AH can attract will be about the same as IL2 and DCS can support.  And DCS and IL2 are NOT scattering their numbers across 3 countries.


I’ve always been confused why people think that high-end graphics somehow bog down a server.  The server isn’t rendering frames for the clients.  Graphics are client side rendered and have little to do with the data going back and forth with the server.  If HTC had the money for 3-d artists and modelers and if HT upgraded to a more modern graphics engine, there is no reason AH couldn’t also have DCS level graphics.  The server is not really a design consideration to the client rendered graphics. High-end graphics doesn’t put much additional load on a server.  That load is distributed across each client.  It does mean that clients still rocking 386’s with 2mb graphic cards might be excluded.  SO it limits the size of you potential pool of players.  That doesn’t seem to be too bad of a problem for DCS.  People gladly go out and buy whole new systems to play DCS if needed.

Someday someone will have DCS level fidelity and graphics with HTC level server design.    Maybe Combat Pilot.

[Animl-AW]

Nonsense.
I’m posting to a WWII MP base. DCS doesn’t fit that. It wasn’t and will not be designed to do it. Has nothing to do with anything you’ve said about DCS. I excluded it but MY opinion if just that in a ine sentence mention. Din’t get your panties in a wad to defend its mere mention.

I made an error in a video dating, that makes everything I say wrong and a lie. We get it.

Also NONSENSE on 70-120 being a cap. You’ve been at this long enough to know its summer numbers. Last winter we hit 200, and average was 130-160. You knew what you were saying was downplay AH with focus on summer numbers that are always lower. Prone time this summer is 100-125.

Why don’t you take s breath from knee jerk reactions of defense and fraudulent insinuations to flatten my rep. This thread fits this board and section, its about AH.

Get a hobby, mow the lawn, do something besides biting my ankles with endless undue obsession based drama.

Don’t march around here trying to hijack a nostalgic thread with your non-stop dcs banter and casting AH in a negative light because you gaven’t played but a handful if times in 9 + yrs.

Get some help with that projection and narcassism. Thus thread was not meant for your bs.

[CptTrips]

There is a seasonal oscillation overlaying a long term downward trend.  Lusche has shown this time and time again to every new denier that comes along.
Every year the winter numbers peak a little lower than the year before.  Every year the summer number drop a little lower than the year before.  The trend has been continuing since at least 2009.  When I came back in late 2018, the average evening count was around 186.


You don't own this forum Animl and you aren't in charge of anything here.  I'll post where I wish and say what I want, and you'll have to deal with it.

[Animl-AW]

There is a seasonal oscillation overlaying a long term downward trend.  Lusche has shown this time and time again to every new denier that comes along.
Every year the winter numbers peak a little lower than the year before.  Every year the summer number drop a little lower than the year before.  The trend has been continuing since at least 2009.


You don't own this forum Animl and you aren't in charge of anything here.  I'll post where I wish and say what I want, and you'll have to deal with it.

Whatever dude. You are here to out AH in a bad light every single chance you get. Move along. Its not about you nor dcs. Its about coming to 3D from 2D.

Current players know much more about AH than you spew. You’re not the god of sim knowledge.

What ever. Its about nostalgia.

Move along to your own sim boards where you belong talking about your obsession with your own crowd.

Just leave it be.

[CptTrips]

Whatever dude. You are here to out AH in a bad light every single chance you get. Move along. Its not about you nor dcs. Its about coming to 3D from 2D.

Current players know much more about AH than you spew. You’re not the god of sim knowledge.

What ever. Its about nostalgia.

Move along to your own sim boards where you belong talking about your obsession with your own crowd.

Just leave it be.

Can you point out to me which of my statements were incorrect?


I will not go anywhere.  I will post where I wish and say what I want.   If fact, this thread is my new home for a while to demonstrate to you how little control you have.

[waystin2]

Me thinks this was a stink bait post.  Enjoy! 

[AAIK]

The past is the past, you can't relive it or have it back.

The legacy of AW is currently living on in AH and WW2OL. WB is basically dead in the water at this point and is a few steps away from the grave.

AH has decided to auto-pilot until crash as a retirement fund for HT.

WW2OL is decades behind in technical debt and it slowly moving to the future. If they get there who know? Despite, its still in active development.

The future of these games depend on us to propagate the genre. If we don't do it no one will.

[CptTrips]

WB is basically dead in the water at this point and is a few steps away from the grave.

I was wondering.  I knew WWIIOL was still sorta out there.  It wasn't clear if WB still was even though I've heard no official announcement of it closing.  I tried to go to their forums the other day and it was like all gone or something and has been for months.  http://bhlanding.ient.com/warbirdsforum/index.php




Maybe Wild Bill is throwing all his money behind his bow-hunting game. 



Ooofff.

[Skyyr]

This is the current IL2.

https://youtu.be/LY5SuI9CH8Q?si=Skq6H5C1JFyoHUNV



Absolutely a massive graphics difference.

[Animl-AW]

This is the current IL2.

https://youtu.be/LY5SuI9CH8Q?si=Skq6H5C1JFyoHUNV



Absolutely a massive graphics difference.

Correct, my bad. But it still applies, maybe more, MP is diminished for graphics. Same point, error in comparison. Whats the biggest MP on one server/arena numbers compared to AH. Which is my point. We’re branching away from Mp.

[CptTrips]

This is the current IL2.
Absolutely a massive graphics difference.

YEah.  I was working up a review of AHIII vs patched 1946.  AHIII and patched 1946 are VERY close in graphical quality.  I think 1946 had slightly better ground graphics, AH had superior clouds.  Neither were up to current IL2 GB standards.






Never could get decent Dover cliffs in AH.  I think I saw someone say that a scenario used a 3-d object laid on the terrain to do it, but I could find no screenshot. 

[CptTrips]

Correct, my bad. But it still applies, maybe more, MP is diminished for graphics. Same point, error in comparison. Whats the biggest MP on one server/arena numbers compared to AH. Which is my point. We’re branching away from Mp.

How are graphics diminishing MP?

[Animl-AW]

How are graphics diminishing MP?

Balance, just as HT did here. Going full tilt and say 500 players us going to take fod hits. You know that answer.

Example, an ah player stated that during MotA, when everyone was firing guns in buffs, their fps dropped to 30. If thise graphics were mire intense the fps hit would be worse.

[CptTrips]

Balance, just as HT did here. Going full tilt and say 500 players us going to take fod hits. You know that answer.

Example, an ah player stated that during MotA, when everyone was firing guns in buffs, their fps dropped to 30. If thise graphics were mire intense the fps hit would be worse.

No I don't know the answer.  I'd say locally rendered graphics have very little effect on the server packet traffic.

Not on the kinds of machines DCS players buy. 

For DCS and IL2, it is their server design that is the limiter.  Not their graphics.  This isn't 1990 anymore.  The graphic processing is off loaded to the GPU not CPU.  Unless you are running SP or you are running your own server locally, The AI load and packet management are offloaded to the server and the Client is seldom CPU bound in MP.

I'm not saying graphics has no effect, but it isn't holding MP back in DCS and IL2.  I could give you a 5 page list of the things in the server that are holding DCS back from MMO.  But graphics aren't the limiting variable.