Author Topic: E vs C  (Read 4208 times)

Offline Creamo

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E vs C
« Reply #135 on: January 21, 2002, 04:54:50 AM »
Congrats Spamm, you even outdid Mrtard2.

I have "faith" in my government and God. Those terrorists my government condemns, will in fact take their beliefs to their graves.

You "grasp" that?

Offline Samm

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« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2002, 05:13:26 AM »
If you agree with what I said than why are you hostile with me ?

Offline Naso

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Very interesting discussion...
« Reply #137 on: January 21, 2002, 05:30:23 AM »
but what amaze me is why, when religious people and agnostic people start a discussion, they tend to compare apples with oranges.

In other terms, it's impossible to compare a religious belief (like the creation mith) with a scientific theory (like the evolution theory).

By definition the religion is based on beliefs, dogma (you use the same word in english?) that cannot be explained, they must be taken as true because is God that say this.

The science (as defined by Galileo) is based on theory, iphotesis that must be proved and verified at any time, valid only until someone else (or the same scientist even) can prove a different, contraddicting theory.

The best compromise between the religious beliefs and the scientific theoryes I've heard was from my Professor of the class of paleontology (sp.?) at the university:

"Evolution and creation are both true: God is the creative force of the Big Bang (the start of our time), and the One that set the rules, and I thank Him for the gift of this amaizing universe to explore".

Nice, uh?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2002, 05:41:01 AM by Naso »

Offline Naso

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« Reply #138 on: January 21, 2002, 05:33:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samm
If you agree with what I said than why are you hostile with me ?


Dont worry Samm, it's just Creamo's style ;)

Offline Kieran

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...I did answer this question several stages up.

Quote
Either they haven't taken the time to think about the issues, or they surrendered to the fact that having a religious belief simply carries no logic.


God gave his son as blood sacrifice to prove we should give all we have to Him. Jesus was also proof of life beyond death. Jesus, being perfect in life, was the perfect blood sacrifice, making further animal sacrifice unnecessary.

I realize I wrote it in a much larger format the first time, so maybe this time it will be easier to find. I find perfect logic in it.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #140 on: January 21, 2002, 08:54:04 AM »
LOL. I'd like to be in the position to know what purpose the God saw / sees in animal sacrifice. What was the benefit to him? As an all-forgiving and all-being he should not require any sacrifices to please him. That was more like the paganic Gods of the past who were spiteful and wanted blood if someone broke their rules. All in the minds of people of course, since by also your definition, these Gods never existed. :)

Only the God that YOU believe in, exists.

Keep your faith if it makes you happy.. You couldn't convince me of anything though, which was no surprise really.

Offline Kieran

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You said it, not me!
« Reply #141 on: January 21, 2002, 09:07:38 AM »
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You couldn't convince me of anything though, which was no surprise really.


I believe that, as you basically have yet to acknowledge you've understood a word I've said. Could be the language barrier, I suppose.

God didn't demand blood sacrifice to "please" Him. It was intended as atonement for sin. Sacrificing a perfectly good animal was costly; more than that, the way in which it needed to be offered forced the giver to think about God- which is the part that was "pleasing". One of the purposes of sacrifice was for the giver to recognize that, without God, they would have nothing.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #142 on: January 21, 2002, 09:28:20 AM »
Kieran its more than a language barrier.

I just can't grasp why a God should demand costly sacrifices from people for centuries, then decide to end it by sacrificing his own son. Just face it, the sacrifice comes from the believers sense of guilt and sin. He feels (or the priests did) that he should make up his sins by sacrificing his property to the God. After that he is ok again.. So, in order to remove the sin of murdering someone, you murder a flock of animals after that, burn them at the altar and life shines again. Very convenient, yet it lacks any logic again.

With catholics its sin - confess - absolution - rinse - repeat.

The funny part is that most christians feel guilt and think theyre sinners even if they're not breaking against the book.

Of course 90% of people today break against the rules of nutrition, blood transfer etc. that are written in Bible. Those rules were essential during the times when they couldn't match blood types or prepare certain types of meat so that its free of parasites or disease. Now the rules are just senseless and outdated even though they probably saved hundreds of lives back then.

Has there been any documented instances where a person has skipped a sacrifice and got directly punished by God after that?

It is and was all in the persons head. Superstition.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #143 on: January 21, 2002, 10:10:13 AM »
Two of Aaron's sons burst into flames for not preparing a sacrifice properly. This is documented in the Bible (I'm at work, cannot look for reference here).

What is escaping you is the process of moving from paradise--> fall from grace--> the Law--> Jesus--> Salvation. The process shows us that, since we have free will we tend to rebel against God. God first shows us we sin; he then shows us we cannot rid ourselves of sin; next, he shows us the price of sin is death (though Jesus didn't sin, His death was necessary for the sins of the world); finally, he shows us that through Jesus we can enter heaven and defeat death.

Animals were used as substitutes for people- after all, God couldn't very well ask people to kill themselves to atone for their sins. The sacrifices were just that- sacrifices. They were also tests of faith- "Do you believe God provides? If so, giving up a lamb from the best of your herd won't matter, you are giving it back to God." This is therefore also recognizing where the wealth you enjoy came from in the first place.

God tested Abraham when he told him to sacrifice his only son (to his wife, Sarah), a son who came after a very long wait. In this ancient society children were part of a man's success, and having no heir was considered a punishment by God. Yet Abraham was prepared to do what God asked of him. God stopped him, pleased Abraham understood where the thing he most loved on the planet came from- God Himself. Abraham proved he would hold nothing back from God, and because of this he was turned into a great nation.

God did no less when he offered the best he could offer to the world- His only son. He held nothing back, and this was the ultimate sacrifice. Once again, how could any lamb ever compare to Jesus? Once and for all, sin could be absolved, but the only catch is you have to believe Jesus did it for you and you must follow Him.

You speak of "guilt" and pressure from leaders. Do you know what "conviction" is in its religious context? It means the Holy Spirit calls to you and attempts to lead you to salvation. I felt it- very strongly. It wasn't a product of my environment; remember, I came up in a family of atheists. It was simply there, a feeling of overpowering magnitude, something difficult to explain. I have felt guilt before, this wasn't guilt. This was the absolute certain and innate knowledge that I was on the wrong track and needed to change.

I searched for answers, found them, and rejected them. I didn't want to give up control of my life, and excused away the need for me to do so. I used every dodge you and Mr. Fish have dropped on me so far, and many more you haven't thought up yet. I finally realized I couldn't run from it, it was truth, and I needed to look it squarely in the face and for the first time in my life do the right thing.

As I lay there in my bed confessing that, a glow hit my chest, radiating warmth throughout my body, and peace as I have never known before or since flooded my body. I felt it. I was there. I was touched and reborn in that very instant. Nothing, NOTHING on this planet will ever convince me there is no God, as I have felt His touch personally.

I don't have to understand it all, I won't be the most eloquent spokesman, I may not even convince you or anyone else, but I can only speak the truth. I know God exists.

Offline Kieran

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Ah, there's truth in your words.
« Reply #144 on: January 21, 2002, 10:17:37 AM »
Quote
But things have to be pretty friggin bad before I start grasping the unknown. Like drowning.


Think on that for a bit.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #145 on: January 21, 2002, 10:20:53 AM »
All I can say is that stay strong in your faith Kieran.

You should always do what your heart tells you, we just go different ways on this one.

I realize I can't convince you to change your mind about something you feel so strongly about.. And I don't really want to insult you either.

We may differ in opinnions, but there's no need to fight over them.

Good luck and good future from my behalf, I have no need to continue this discussion any longer.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #146 on: January 21, 2002, 10:23:27 AM »
No probs here! Meant no disprespect to you either.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #147 on: January 21, 2002, 10:29:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


Target, that's it. That's what I'm saying.

"It just don't matter."

All of mankind's strife, killing, abuse, stupidity, sorrow, etc., in the world since the beginning of time... related to religion as well as that totally UNRELATED to religion...

and here we still are. Plodding along into the future, making progress all the time.

Teaching or not teaching Creationism in US schools isn't going to make much difference, if any at all.

Tempest in a teapot. Laugh and press on with your life.

"And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should."

Bet you like that one, eh?  :D


I did!

We have "plodded along" as you say, and have made great strides over the years. What you fail to see IMHO is that the strides may have come sooner, or in greater leaps had not the burden of religious "science" held us back.
Teaching Creationism in school as if it were science would harm our children as much as teaching Christianity as if it were the only answer.

People who compare the Evolution and Creation as both requiring faith are simply not putting in the time to learn the issue. And that is really the whole point. Taking something on faith reduces the ability to look at it with a critical eye. Creationism is faith-based by its very nature, and thus does not belong in a classroom as part of a science curriculum.

ra, Please go back and read the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Entropy exists in a CLOSED system. Unless you view the universe as the closed system it just doesn't apply in this case. But the more telling qoute from you was "I don't care" and that you are from the "I don't know school". Exactly my point. If you don't know then you should care. If you don't care you will never know.

I've been away for a few days, 140+ posts! Wonder stuff in here on both sides (sorry if that sounds conflicted Kieran).:D

Offline midnight Target

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Xeno
« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2002, 10:43:04 AM »
This is for Kieran:

Xeno and Calculus

Offline Am0n

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« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2002, 11:04:05 AM »
I wont start on the brain washing bible religions, im sure ive done my part to piss off the christian community. Maybe even opened a few eyes, doubtful because in christianity the blind lead the blind.

But the argue that evolution is not happening, and has not brought us to what humans are today is laughable.

I guess the petrifide in ice glacier neanderthal's that were recently discovered are not "gods" people. They clearly are "human" but with bones structures that are not as "developed" as ours (in the identical shapes).


From single-celled amoeba's at the pools that bleed from the core of the earth, advanced to a multi-celled bacteria that eats away at it we have developed, as all creatures on earth.

Ive seen a study done buy a professor of astronamy/mathmatics that wrote up a eqasion(SP) according to earths evolution that claimed in our galaxy there should be 50,000+ planets with life form, such as ours. I think "god" had his work cut out for him..