Author Topic: Problems and Solutions for the Main Arena:  (Read 3408 times)

Offline pbirmingham

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Problems and Solutions for the Main Arena:
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2002, 11:42:56 AM »
The problem with your suggestions, Eskimo, is that they proceed from the assumption that furballing is a problem, as is the inability to run lightly-opposed raids.  Not all of us see it that way.

I note that most of your suggestions
(1) make it harder to defend targets
(2) add yet more critical targets that must  be defended
or
(3) prolong the effects of an unsuccessful defense

I think defense is hard enough as it is.  I don't really want to see it become even more difficult.

Offline Vortex

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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2002, 12:32:26 PM »
I'm a big fan of a reduction in the effectiveness of radar in AH. Its pretty potent...a bit too potent imo.

A few other suggestions/modifications for radar:

-- Allow dar bar indicatiors for _your_ forces in enemy territory. i.e. if there's a big fight at a field deep in enemy territory, keep the friendly dar bar as it is. Remove the enemey dar bar when outside your radar range. This at least allows folks to know where the action is for fights deeper into the enemy's country.

-- Eliminate friendly blips when in enemy territory. I should not be able to pop up radar and see a glob of green dots over an enemy controlled airfield. Assuming it is out of our radar range, the only info I should have available is friendly dar bar info for that area, nothing else. No friendly radar blips, no enemy dar bar. I'm deep in enemy territory and flying in blind, as I should be.

As it sits now I will never be surprised by what a dot is as radar either tells me immediately its friend or foe, or if in enemy territory gives me enough info to draw the right conclusion (i.e. its not friendly, ergo its enemy).  No surprise, ever.

On the issue of CV's, well, I think for the most part they're a pretty ineffective tool in AH. CV based raids rarely bear fruit. Indeed, that is in part due to the ease by which they can be used. Fact of the matter is you can't restrict that use as by default it begs the question; Who decides when they can be used? You definitely can't go by points as they have nothing to do with strategic or tactical competance. In short, it'd be a real nightmare to manage I think. What you could do, however, is allow players to put a pop-up message in place in the hanger of a CV, indicating that it is enroute to a targe and should not be used. These would need to be a generic message(s) activated by a command of some sort. At least that way players trying to launch have an idea beforehand whats up. That's won't stop them from launching, but I think its a better middle ground.

Along with that, and as a primary change, one needs to look at the underlying problem with fleets...their glass jaws. Sinking a CV is childs play for the most part. One pilot with a hvy US fighter can suicide a CV without any real problem. Take two pilots and you're pretty much guaranteed the kill as the first draws ack while the other drops eggs. Point being a CV based operation deep in enemy territory is likely going to fail regardless as you just aren't going to have time to get LVT's in in most occasions before the CV is sunk (assuming of course that the other side does actually resist).

CV's imo should be a significant force. To make them such they need to be drastically strengthened. This not only allows many more gameplay options for both offense and defense, it also infinitely increases the importance of ports. Losing a port is a non-issue, as is gaining one. CV's just aren't that effective to warrant any attention to ports. Their only real value is that you can play "hide the CV" after. Good for a giggle but it too wears thin.  Stronger fleets would indeed change that (as would supply convoys, but that's a different animal entirely).

If you set damage on the CA to 10,000 lbs and CV to 13,000 lbs of ord, give or take, you at least make it such that a combined effort is needed to take one out. That's roughly what you would be dropping on an airfield if you wanted to neuter it (13,000 roughly). Having a CV around the same makes a degree of sense.

My two bits anywhoo

Vortex
« Last Edit: January 22, 2002, 12:41:56 PM by Vortex »
--)-Vortex----
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Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2002, 12:43:59 PM »
Love it eskimo!

Only one thing I disagree with, and that's limiting radar to 25miles from the nearest field.  The dar bars would probably be the toughest to implent on this.  Perhaps set it up so that only sectors adjecent to a sector with a friendly airfield will show the red bars indicating an enemy presence.  This would give 25 to 50miles warning.

I'd really love to see the no bar for 499ft AGL and lower.  wasn't it like that once? way back in the beta days?  Me and the crew used to have alot of fun on the beta map flying NOE through the canyons and sneaking the center fields of the other side (11, 19, and 3 I think they were?)  HT himself discovered how useful that feature would be and promptly muted me when I pointed it out on channel 1.

The hold flight idea on the CVs is good, but probalby needs more thinking through because of the rank/command structure for running the boats.  Try this scenario:  Map - Mindano, country in the southern part of the map.  Someone ranked around 200 takes the CV and starts sailing it for a21 (I think? south-western most field on the end of the island).  They turn on hold flight.
The task group is about 50 miles from the base, still about 30miles away from the chosen launch point for this attack.  Someone ranked higher than the current commander of the task group decides he wants to go ahead and launch, but can't becuase hold flight is turned on.  This person takes control of the TG, turns off hold flight, and launches.  Then gives up control of the TG so whoever can take it and do what they want.
The original TG commander can take control back and turn hold flight back on, but the damage is already done.  The group's position has been given away and the op is a wash because an impatient someone had a higher rank.  Don't know what oculd be done about this problem though.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2002, 12:46:03 PM »
Well.... since the usual suspects have chimed in on a back slapping orgy....  I will give the opposition viewpoint.  

Every "problem"  called out in the post is really a bonus.   Strat?   Admit it... when you tell people about this game do you really have the balls to tell em about the capturer the flag aspect?   It's friggin embarassing.   I tell em you get to chose from 20 or so different fighter planes that have the same flight models and damage and gunnery as the real ones did... I tell em that you get to fly in an arena with 400 other guys from around the world and shoot each other down.   I tell em you can actually talk to each other on "roger wilco'" and that there are three "countries" with anyone from another country fair game...   They get very interested...   If you try to explain the "strat"  the light goes out and you can see em thinking what a kids game it is and what a dork you must be...  

If all those ideas were implemented we would have a game every bit as boring (worse even) than the CT and about as populated after a month or so... except that even tempered zigrat would "be back".    The game would be a radarless late war only game of hide and seek and mission gangbanging.    Only people with no life (as opposed to "one life") would be able to "enjoy"  (i use the word loosely) the "game"  (again, loosely).    There would be no place for lone wolfs or people who liked slower planes or didn't have 4 hrs a day to spend "playing"  at formation flying.

Anyhow... eskimo writes well.   He's just wrong.
lazs

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2002, 12:49:22 PM »
Real war= Capture the flag.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2002, 12:50:53 PM »
Laz, FA3 has a place for you :)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2002, 12:59:10 PM »
rip.... real war equals years of boredom.   I do not think we want to simulate that aspect.    real war equals most people never seeing action or knowing if they are doing any good.

As i have told you before... I am not for seperate arenas or for other sims.   I know you are pretty stupid and dishonest so i will repeat that as often as needed.
lazs

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2002, 01:00:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by pbirmingham
The problem with your suggestions, Eskimo, is that they proceed from the assumption that furballing is a problem, as is the inability to run lightly-opposed raids.  Not all of us see it that way.

I note that most of your suggestions
(1) make it harder to defend targets
(2) add yet more critical targets that must  be defended
or
(3) prolong the effects of an unsuccessful defense

I think defense is hard enough as it is.  I don't really want to see it become even more difficult.


pbirmingham;
I like to furball, I don't like it, however, when that's all there is to do most of the time.

I can assure you, the vast majority of folks will still be able to, and will, furball 100% of the time.

Furballers may even find their furballs lasting longer because the strat guys would rather leave the mess alone and attempt to capture a 2nd or 3rd line base.

These changes do not oppose furballing!  They simply create alternatives for players who want them!

(1)  Sometimes targets will be harder to defend.  For low-alt no bar-dar raids to work, everyone must stay under 500'.  This is can be very difficult and hard to pull-off with large groups and/or in hilly/mountainous terrain.  
The norm will still be what we have now; a constant stream of planes, at all altitudes, heading from one base to another.  A big shifting furball moving from one base to another, back and forth, hour after hour.
No bar-dar in enemy territory will really only benefit large organized groups, giving them a chance to assemble and climb before tipping off the enemy as to where an attack may take place.  If a group of guys wait 10 minutes for a mission to start and then stay together, and work together, why shouldn't they be rewarded with success more often?

(2) What critical targets are being added?  Trains and convoys?  It should be possible, not easy, just possible, to diminish strat targets and base supplies by pounding trains or convoys for 30-45 minutes.  
Current strat targets used to be more critical (actually had a strategic effect on game play) before 1.08).  I am just suggesting that they serve a purpose.

"(3) prolong the effects of an unsuccessful defense"
How so?  I don't get it.  Elaborate please.

eskimo

Offline pbirmingham

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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2002, 02:19:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2

"(3) prolong the effects of an unsuccessful defense"
How so?  I don't get it.  Elaborate please.

eskimo


"Players can bring in supply C-47s to make up for missing trains by keeping city from going down further, but, C-47s WOULD NOT REBUILD STRAT TARGETS!"

In other words, once that un-detectable NOE raid succeeds, you're SOL and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, as opposed to the current situation where you can repair it.

I realize you're not presenting these as an anti-furballing platform or any such.  I just  think you're missing the fact that a lot of these alternatives you are creating involve depriving others of what they're using to further their play style.  You're playing a zero-sum game even if you don't realize it.  Nothing wrong with that, but you can't say that these proposals don't affect the furballers, because they definitely do.  Therefore, you shouldn't be surprised when some of us raise our voices in opposition.

I like the game fine the way it is.

Offline faminz

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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2002, 02:34:32 PM »
My main change would be (in agreement with eskimo) the ability to sneak under the radar. This was always possible in Air Warrior, below 200' was 'under the dar' and I like the 500' idea.

I actually assumed it was operating like that to start with but was  quickly disabused of THAT!

secondly, as I have previously posted, I would like to see local radar from specific planes. ie: a radar operator position in certain planes (mossie, Ju-88 and Me110). This should be limited in range, not dependent on the country radar and show altitude.

In conjunction with knocking out the country radar these planes would then be startegically used to patrol the 'borders' and locate otherwise unseeable attacks.

But the under the dar option must definitely be added asap.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2002, 02:43:14 PM »
S!

I totally agree with Eskimo.

If the trains, convoys etc. don`t get through, then supply goes down.  You gotta protect them or your side suffers.

Offline humble

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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2002, 02:50:10 PM »
I haven't read hangtimes post yet so I can only comment on this one. I think the idea's are all well thought out....BUT....the MA actually reflects the actual conditions better than ever (IMO). By 1944 the enviornment over europe was a blood bath (especially for the germans). Very little happened without significant interaction from the other side. Obviously as time went by the germans were no longer capable of fielding a truely capable defense, but from Jan 44 thru september or so the casualties on both sides were brutal.

Personally, I find the MA much less enjoyable right now...but I like to find the 1 on 1,2,3 and rumble on....now if you really dont apply solid SA, solid E-fighting/B&Z and fly with a squad or wingie you'll have a tough time. So mostly folks fly in a herd....stay close to the boundries etc.

As for raids...more people means less undefended turf...the easy 1-4 people capture stuff (very unrealistic) is going away...now you really need a larger more controlled team and a more focused effort. As for armoured combat...truthfully damage/death is drastically undermodeled. I recently read a book by one of the maintanence officers of the 3rd armoured division. By August of 44 most tanks were operating with crews of 3 instead of the normal 5. Each time a sherman was "killed" 2-3 crew members were killed on average. Often the tanks were salvaged and repaired within days. One incident in the book recalls 17 tanks that were repaired and refitted with new crews (an experienced driver and 2 recruites). They rolled for front lines at 10am....the maintanence batalion ran into them as they moved forward again supporting the days advance....they found 15 of the 17 knocked out at 4pm with almost 100% crew lose. Tanks were very susceptable to all kinds of weapons....especially shermans:)


Anyway, I think were suffering from to much of a good thing...for some of us...it's a "brave new world" and many (including me) are going to need to adjust our thinking and tactics to confront this new MA.

Starting to see why B&Z was invented in the 1st place :)

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Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2002, 02:54:35 PM »
pbirmingham;

Who flies the C-47s anyway?  Strat guys, or furballers?
Why does everything need to be quickly un-done?
What's more important; having a game that involves complex and dynamic strategy and sometimes leaves a country deprived of resources, or one that is stagnant?
How does losing radar on occasion hurt furballs?  If you have been furballing between A-1 and A-43 for the past 2 hours, and the radar goes down, why would you expect not to find the same furball, in approximately the same place, on your next 7 sorties?
If my memory serves me right, when dar is down, and there is a big furball or fight going on somewhere, countrymen talk about it.  It's not all that hard to find a fight or furball without radar.
If the enemy captures some of your bases while the dar is down, what do you care?  Your furball is still taking place, right?

eskimo

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2002, 03:00:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
rip.... real war equals years of boredom.   I do not think we want to simulate that aspect.    real war equals most people never seeing action or knowing if they are doing any good.

As i have told you before... I am not for seperate arenas or for other sims.   I know you are pretty stupid and dishonest so i will repeat that as often as needed.
lazs



Laz, put down the pipe.  Real war=Capture the flag. I was not talking of the content of the war, I was speaking of the GOAL of war.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2002, 03:05:12 PM »
Good post, Eskimo.  Some other good ideas here too.
Sabre
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