Realism vs. Fun

[Lephturn]

I checked out the CT for a while this afternoon.  I REALLY like the new planeset and timeframe.  The map isn't bad and I think it works pretty well.  I did switch to TCP, but my connect seemed fine, even during a fight.

That said, I logged out after a while.  I was bored.  I spent way too long flying around looking for something to shoot at.  There were about 40 folks online, so there were enough of them... I just couldn't find them reliably.  I'm not alone either... I got a couple of newer folks to stop by the CT and check it out... and I got similar feedback.  While I really like the CT's idea and basic setup, I don't think it's going to work very well simply because the "realism vs. fun" balance is too far to the realism side.

Let me explain why I think these to are in conflict.  While I like to simulate WWII air combat, I fly AH to have fun.  There were lots of things about WWII air combat that really SUCKED, and I don't want to simulate those things.  One of the main things I don't want to simulate is the fact that in WWII, the vast majority of sorties would encounter no enemy aircraft at all.  While that's realistic, it's not fun.  The trick is to simulate the fun parts as realistically as possible, and be sure not to create an environment that simulates the parts that were not fun.

Bottom line, I think the more "realistic" radar settings in the CT are going to keep people away, including myself much of the time.  Yep, they are a lot more realistic with no dar below 500 feet, limited range dar bars and dot radar.  So realistic, that flying in the CT becomes TOO much like the real thing... lots of boredom.  If you want reasonable numbers in the CT, you need folks to be able to find a good fight.  Who cares if the radar isn't as realistic if it makes it more fun?

This has been my problem with the CT from the start, and it's still the problem I think is holding it back from being the arena I want to spend most of my time in.  All the other parts are in place.. planeset, perk points for an improved version of an RPS, all kinds of things.  If I had MA style radar I'd be happy, and I think there would be lots more folks in there.

I also believe this isn't just my opinion.  I think there is a very vocal minority that wants the ultra-realism, and that's fine, but I believe there is a mostly silent majority that will never bother to come in this forum and let you know why they don't fly the CT.  This is just my opinion, but I think the radar settings are too far on the realism side to get decent numbers of folks in there.  Personally, I'm dissapointed because the REST of the CT setup is so good and so fun.

Please CT organizers... think about switching the radar settings more toward the MA settings.  It won't be as realistic, but I think it will be more fun and it will allow more folks to enjoy the fantastic setups you all are putting up in the CT.

[brady]

I hear you pont, but I would counter it by saying this:

 The sector bars give a good indacation of whear the enemy is, and more than likely the enemy is flying between your base and his, this narows down the search area considerably. As far as the under 500 ft thing, I dont realy think this is so much of an Issue, low leval atacks are risky because of the dangers from flak, and even then the atackers will POP up on radar once they near their target, and this will lead to a good battle at the base under atack, the most usefull aspect of the no radar under 500ft is for goon's and it is prety obvious which bases are likely to be gooned so finding theam is prety easy.

  All the above does howeaver supose one thing,That the player is paying more attention to his suroundings, and the game in general, So for those looking for a quick furball fix I supose this is not the place.

  I do appriceate how well you put your point forth, and it is defentaly food for thought.

[Karnak]

I agree Lephturn.  That is why I left as well.  There were 11 Allied fliers on when I left, and not one single indication of where they were either.

I could just fly around randomly I guess, but I don't have that much time to play.  So I'll go where I can find a fight.

[Durr]

I have yet to have any problems finding enemies in the CT, even when there are only 8 or 9 people in total.  All you have to do is start an offensive action on an enemy airfield and the enemies will show up to defend almost everytime.

I do not want to see radar like in the MA.  I hate the radar in the MA.  The CT radar is far superior.

[Seeker]

Agree 100% Lephturn.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

I agree with Durr. Atleast for me, the best fun in CT is to organize or take part in an attack.

Camo

[deSelys]

With all due respect, I find hard to believe that a trainer has problems to find a fight in CT when 40 players are logged in.

I've never had any trouble to get shot down with 10 people online.

Dar is just fine. Yes, WWII radar was better than this BUT:

- WWII pilots hadn't a graphical display to easily read enemy positions
- IFF wasn't too good those days

So the dar we have here tries to reflect those facts. Honestly, I would much prefer a system generated text message giving updates on enemy's position every minute or so, like a real controller.

OTOH, the following experience reinforce my belief that dot dar should be banned in CT:
 I was flying against another CT-fan in the baltic map setup, 2 weeks ago. One of his squadmates logs in, apparently for the first time, and begins to chase me as well. The CT-fan hits bingo fuel and rtb. His squaddie, flying a La-5, pushes the chase. I was flying a G10 and began to outclimb him. With enough separation, I turn back and attack him from above. My pass isn't good enough for a shot, and I overshoot him vertically. I was ready to extend again, but he seems to have lost sight of me. In most cases, the bogey begins then to maneuver to try to re-acquire me visually, and to avoid giving a predictable flight path. Here, nothing! He flies straight for an unusually long amount of time, allowing me to shoot him down from his low 6. After the 's, he tells me that the radar is broken because he can't see any dots.
I'm only guessing, but I'm pretty sure he used the clipboard to find where I was after he lost sight (*). And THAT is completely unrealistic. No way a WWII controller could have distinguished the opponents of a dogfight on his radar screen.

Your comments are of course welcome.

(*) I could have asked him if it was the case, but I didn't want to sound pompous nor harsh. I just explained the dar settings of CT

[deSelys]

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by deSelys
With all due respect, I find hard to believe that a trainer has problems to find a fight in CT when 40 players are logged in.

I honestly don't see why my being a trainer should matter.  I'm just another player in the CT and I'm relating my experience.  I did find a fight at first, and really enjoyed it.  The problem was that after that first one, I ended up launching two more sorties where I augered for lack of enemies because the bar dar didn't give me enough info when launching.  When the bar dar did show something, I was too far away to engage in combat.

Originally posted by deSelys
I've never had any trouble to get shot down with 10 people online.

Dar is just fine. Yes, WWII radar was better than this BUT:

- WWII pilots hadn't a graphical display to easily read enemy positions
- IFF wasn't too good those days

So the dar we have here tries to reflect those facts. Honestly, I would much prefer a system generated text message giving updates on enemy's position every minute or so, like a real controller..

Sure, that would be great, but we don't have that system to work with.  We do have a graphical version of radar.  You seem to be missing my point... I really don't care how "realistic" the radar is or isn't, I want and even NEED to be able to find a fight in a reasonable ammount of time.  I'm pointing out that it's not just me with this experience, and that you will never hear from 99% of the folks who try the CT and don't come back.

Originally posted by deSelys
OTOH, the following experience reinforce my belief that dot dar should be banned in CT:
 I was flying against another CT-fan in the baltic map setup, 2 weeks ago. One of his squadmates logs in, apparently for the first time, and begins to chase me as well. The CT-fan hits bingo fuel and rtb. His squaddie, flying a La-5, pushes the chase. I was flying a G10 and began to outclimb him. With enough separation, I turn back and attack him from above. My pass isn't good enough for a shot, and I overshoot him vertically. I was ready to extend again, but he seems to have lost sight of me. In most cases, the bogey begins then to maneuver to try to re-acquire me visually, and to avoid giving a predictable flight path. Here, nothing! He flies straight for an unusually long amount of time, allowing me to shoot him down from his low 6. After the 's, he tells me that the radar is broken because he can't see any dots.
I'm only guessing, but I'm pretty sure he used the clipboard to find where I was after he lost sight (*). And THAT is completely unrealistic. No way a WWII controller could have distinguished the opponents of a dogfight on his radar screen.

Your comments are of course welcome.

(*) I could have asked him if it was the case, but I didn't want to sound pompous nor harsh. I just explained the dar settings of CT

Once again I think you are missing the point.  Sure, things like dot radar sometimes allow us to do things that are not realistic.  (Although I would say that anybody that loses sight and has to check the map to find you again is likely already toast anyway.)  I concede that point.  What I'm saying is that the more "realistic" and difficult you make the radar settings, the more difficult it is to find a fight.  The more difficult it is to find a fight, the lower the number of folks who will want to fly there, or be able to fly there.  There are lots of folks like me that don't have a couple of hours at a time to spend in the CT.  I'd like to be able to spend a half an hour in there and find a nice fight.  Although sometimes I can find what I'm looking for, I spent more time augering out of boredom then I did fighting.  As I said before, the radar is so realistic that flying sorties is becoming too much like the real thing in that most of the time you don't have contact with the enemy.

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Durr
I have yet to have any problems finding enemies in the CT, even when there are only 8 or 9 people in total.  All you have to do is start an offensive action on an enemy airfield and the enemies will show up to defend almost everytime.

Great if that's your thing.  It's not mine.  I like the fighter role, as I'm sure you have to agree the majority of AH pilots do.  I'll ESCORT somebody, do sweeps, cap, whatever.  However I started every time I logged on by asking my side what was going on, where I was needed, and what I could do.  Mostly there was no response, although a couple of times somebody pointed out the position of an enemy CV.  Eventually I flew all the way to an enemy base and over flew it a few times.  Nobody came up to play after 5 mins or so and there was no bar dar showing anywhere I could fly to so I augered.

Originally posted by Durr
I do not want to see radar like in the MA.  I hate the radar in the MA.  The CT radar is far superior.

You don't mean superior, you mean more realistic or difficult.  The only thing the CT radar settings do is make it easier to attack bases and more difficult to find the other guy.  Sure, that's more realistic, but that's a part of WWII I don't think we should be trying to simulate.  Keep it like this, and you'll have the same very vocal hard-core realism enthusiasts in the CT and nobody else.  The CT radar settings are certainly not superior in terms of attracting people to fly there.

[Sunchaser]

It sounds like some people who really do not want a more difficult main arena to fur around in want to add the CT to their list of options.

I thought the purpose of the CT was to provide an arena for those who actually have the time and inclination to skulk around for awhile with their finger off the trigger.

So, for the easily bored HTC provides the main arena, the dueling arena and for those in search of knowledge, the training arena, all with awacs in the air and you guys want more??????

We are always faced with choices and Hitech has sold us several, just pick the one that suits your present need and leave the others to those who choose to take advantage of them.

I like the idea of having an arena to skulk around in if I so chose and if I want to see every airborn plane in the world on my map I will log into the main and happiness will ensue.

OPTIONS, gotta love 'em!

[deSelys]

Lephturn,

I'm glad we agree on some topics. My point is:

if someone wants a quick sortie, with lots of action: MA

if someone has some time and wants immersion: CT

Sure sometimes I don't encounter anybody during some flights. That's why I almost always bring a bomb now.
OTOH, most fights I have in the CT are more intense and hair-raising than in MA.

I'm not particularly bright. But if I read the pop-up window describing the objectives of the setup, if I communicate with teammates and if I use a bit of my brain, I usually don't have the slightest problem to know where the fight(s) is (are) when 40 ppl are online. But I know I don't have to explain this to you. I've read almost all your articles, and I can tell you're much smarter than I am.

The settings we (CT fans) like don't appeal to the masses? Too bad...for them. I'm used to it now. Like someone said, when you try to please everyone, you only reach one thing: the lowest common denominator.

Ask yourself: if HTC had designed AH with a 12K icon range in the MA, and an HUD 'radar'... and if the CT had the settings our actual MA has....well, I'm afraid this version of the CT would have the same numbers as ours.

I'm not interested in an MA with a reduced planeset. It would only have something less than MA.

The dar and icon settings used into the CT bring something that the MA is, for me, critically lacking: the fog of war.

I hope to see you someday in CT (everywhere but on my 6 )

[Lephturn]

First of all I'd just like to point out that we've had some very good discussions in this thread.  Thanks to all for your well thought-out and polite responses.  It's really good to have a thread like this where everybody discusses things rationally.  

I guess what I'm looking for is all the other settings of the CT, with a bit better radar.  I don't need it to be exactly like the MA, but I think it needs to go more that direction.  I like the icon settings and such, the limited planeset, the historical setup... that's all good in my book.  That's the fun part for me.. the Axis vs. Allies part.

I also don't think it's good for the CT to have so few players.  I think the CT needs to be an alternative arena that will attract enough folks to make it worth HTC's resources to keep it going.  I don't think <30 folks will make that grade.  I WANT this alternative arena and I want to fly there.  I'm willing to compromise, and I agree it doesn't have to be the insta-furball arena that the main must be.  However, I do think the current radar settings swing the pendulum too far the other way.

What compromise would be acceptable to you folks, but help more regular pilots to enjoy the CT?  Surely there is some level of settings here that will strike a better balance between the two?  How about simply longer ranges on the bar dar?  I don't need the uber-dot dar to find a fight, and I think the 500 foot radar floor in fine.  I just need to be able to see where the enemy is generally so I know where to fly to.

What do you "hardcore realism CT types" think?

[deSelys]

I could live with a detailed radar information...in the tower, like WB had.

In the cockpit, radar as we have now in CT.

It would also add the possibility for some players who want to cool down after an intense fight to act as GCI for their squaddies. I did it back in the WB days, and it could be fun.

But I believe this would require some code from HT, and I understand he has other priorities.

Of course, I would also prefer more players into the CT. I'm just afraid that if we 'relax the dar and icon rules' to attract other players, we won't be able to crank them up again without losing all those players...

[Lephturn]

I understand... but I don't mind the icon rules at all.  More detailed radar in the tower only might be a nice solution too, that way I could find where to go for a fight more easily.  Again, I don't think that's possible without some code from HT.

There are lots of things that could be done with some code from HT.  The problem is, until you get enough people flying in there, the CT has to be pretty far down HT's list of priorities.  My question is, what can we do with what we have to help get more folks flying in there.  Once we have a larger group of folks flying the CT, say 100 on a busy night, I think the CT's needs would have to move up HT's priority list higher than it is now, and we might have a better chance to get that code.