Gunsights - How to read them ?

[Fester']

FLS, it quite simply comes down to focus.  Are you consciously focusing on the site, or on the target?

In shooting a rifle, the site at least shares as much attention as the target simply becaue of its relationship to it. i.e. being placed over it. one eye open, lining the site up with the target.  

With a shotgun shooting skeet, the focus is on the target, both eyes open and the barrel of the gun is in the peripheral vision.

in this case you are not lining a site up on the target.  

Dont know if that helps any.  Its an incredibly simply method, it just requires a shift in focus.

Let me know if this has not clarified things for you. If not, be specific on what the difficulty is and I can try to address it specifically.

[FLS]

Fester

I'm familiar with firearms and archery. I was asking about gunnery in Aces High. I don't see how focusing on the target on my monitor allows me to hit it without considering the position of my sight to the target. For example if I'm 500 yards away with 30 degrees AOT and 200 ft higher what would I do with your method that's different from putting the ring and dot in the right position for the shot?

So far you've said that you don't focus on the sight except when you do focus on the sight . You mentioned a system to take people to the next level and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know what that system is.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[airspro]

I got a open mind . I had to use the dot sight that was the darkest as the single dot one was too light on my monitor to see it .

That said , he's got a point . I made this film tonight after trying it just twice .

Let us have some more info please fester .  

am going to try and upload the film I made .



PS:

Camo if you read this < am trying out your bird , pretty much fun so far .

spro

[Fester']

So far you've said that you don't focus on the sight except when you do focus on the sight .

Cute  

If you look back I gave the example of a long dead six shot.  I used this only to illustrate a shift in focus from the system Im talking about.  In so doing it was my hope to shed light on the difference between the two aiming methods, not confuse them.  My apologies.

That said , he's got a point . I made this film tonight after trying it just twice .

Let us have some more info please fester

Thanks airspro

I will start putting this together.  I really have little experience in HTML and posting to a website.  So someone here would have to help with that stuff when we got to that point.

[FLS]

Fester I was just summarizing what I understood of your method.

I dont "use" the dot except as Apar said, in a long dead six shot.

...The real purpose of the dot is as a reference. Ive never thought to myself, "this dot needs to be held a plane length ahead" It's a reference point. Nothing more. All the focus is on the aircraft. The site is a peripheral component.

...To accomplish this, focus only on the target, and where you want to hit the target. The dot sight, the tracers you will see, all of that will be peripheral to the the focus on the target.

To me this sounds like you don't focus on the sight except when you do.

I should mention that I assume you mean your mental focus since everything is the same visual focal distance on your monitor. You had mentioned things being at different distances in RL even though this had nothing to do with my comment on positioning the sight dot in relation to the target on the monitor.

Pretty close. accept youre not "putting the dot" somewhere. If this were real, and we had depth of view, the dot would be out of focus. Your focus would be on the target, the dot would be peripheral.

You also said the following regarding use of the fixed sight:

With the dynamics involved in air to air gunnery, a static site aid ceases to be of value in anything other than a dead six (low variable) shot.

...Once deflection, and range, and relative speeds are added to the equation, the thought of lining a target up with a corresponding spot on a complex "Static' site by calculating the infinate number of variables becomes increasingly impractical.

...I guess my point is not that these gunnery solutions are unsolvable equations, it's that they are not going to be figgured out using a fixed site in combat unless the gunnery solution is an extremely simple one i.e. dead six wings level.

It seems like you simply don't know how to use the sight properly for deflection shots so you believe it's useless but perhaps I misunderstood you.

If I'm not mistaken it also seems like you believe that your experience with archery qualifies you to lecture a Fighter Weapons School instructor on the 'next level' of air to air gunnery. Also you insult him because he doesn't 'get' your points. Is that a fair summary?

If I check the gunnery stats for fescaf will I see evidence of the 'next level' of air to air gunnery that's "So amazingly simple a fourth grader can realize the principles"?

To get back to my example, if I'm 500 yards away with 30 degrees AOT and 200 ft higher what would I do with your method that's different from putting the ring and dot in the right position for the shot? Are you able to answer this question?

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Fester']

First off Im going to apologize to the folks watching this thread.  It is not my intent for this to devolve into nipping at eachothers heals with hollow arguments.  As requested I will work something up on this process for those of you are interested.

As for the hollow arguments I will address them until I get bored or too busy.

To me this sounds like you don't focus on the sight except when you do.

Again, I used this as an example to illustrate the difference between the two techniques.

In this firing solution the dot and the target occupy the same space.  It's complexity is virtually zero.  Wish they were all this simple to solve, then sights would be universally effective

I should mention that I assume you mean your mental focus since everything is the same visual focal distance on your monitor.

Yes, on a  monitor every thing is in the same focal range.  It does not change the process though.  Unless youre a chamileon your mental focus usually benefits from having your visual focus on the same target.

It seems like you simply don't know how to use the sight properly for deflection shots so you believe it's useless but perhaps I misunderstood you.

I understand the use and benefit of the gunsite, under simple or certaintly less complex firing solutions it can be helpful.  My comment about a dead six shot is an example.

My contention is that the more complex the firing solution, the less the aids on the site help us.

If I'm not mistaken it also seems like you believe that your experience with archery qualifies you to lecture a Fighter Weapons School instructor on the 'next level' of air to air gunnery.

My experience with instinctive archery, pistol and skeet/trap shooting allows me to debate on the subject yes.  If you fail to see a relationship between the fields then my explaining it will not help you.  

Im very impressed with the size of egos here, perhaps I should have asked permission to speak?  Maybe we should make a smiley face with his hand raised and you and Andy can call on us in turn?  

Also you insult him because he doesn't 'get' your points. Is that a fair summary?

Insult?  wow, big AND fragile egos.

Actually I've been pretty patient with his combativness.  

If I check the gunnery stats for fescaf will I see evidence of the 'next level' of air to air gunnery that's "So amazingly simple a fourth grader can realize the principles"?

You will see 8+% accuracy for last camp with a 3+K/D ratio.

Is that expert gunnery? Certaintly not.  I would imagine 13% would be damn good. anything above that expert.  That's just my opinion though.  Real life keeps me out of the virtual cockpit.

Hope youre not going to hijack this into an ad hominem attack on the merits of what I am discussing being directly related to my personal stats.  I would expect more from you.

To get back to my example, if I'm 500 yards away with 30 degrees AOT and 200 ft higher what would I do with your method that's different from putting the ring and dot in the right position for the shot?

LMFAO  Do you actually think like this when faced with a firing solution?  Good Lord, Im suprised you dont run out of gas before you pull the trigger

(note, smiley face is there for levity.  Wouldnt want anyone to get offended )

Are you able to answer this question?

Gosh, I'd have to ask for more clarification.

What's my sideslip?
What's the target's angular speed?
Are venus and the moon alligned?

Focus on the target FLS.  (Probably the primary difference in methodology)

Pay attention to the results.

Dont be afraid to learn.

[Mino]

Fester, way too much time on your hands!:)

[FLS]

Fester

I'm not surprised you didn't answer the question.  I'm also not surprised that you see ego as the other guy's problem.  I won't bother asking you again.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Fester']

I'm not surprised you didn't answer the question.

My answer was the last three lines of my post FLS.  Im not suprised you missed it  

I'm also not surprised that you see ego as the other guy's problem.

Touching
Just making an observation FLS    

Fester, way too much time on your hands!

Me thinks I should go back to lurking for another 3 years  

[FLS]

I'm not surprised I missed it either.  I thought looking at the target and noticing if you hit it was a given.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Fester
I will start putting this together.  I really have little experience in HTML and posting to a website.  So someone here would have to help with that stuff when we got to that point.

Just write it up and post it here first.  I can then turn it into an article and post it on my site for you if you like.

BTW, anybody have a dot site I can try with a red dot?  I can't see the green/yellow ones very well.

[Andy Bush]

Sean

Get it at:

http://webpages.charter.net/alfakilo/lephturn.bmp

Andy

[Lephturn]

Thanks Andy, that's just what I was looking for!

I'll give this a shot and see how I do.

[Sparks]

Andy I have the greatest respect for you especially on ACM and tactics but on this one having spent the last week using the "dot of death" for the first time I have to fall on Fester's / Rude's side.

I've read this thread with GREAT interest.

As an AH flyer of about 2 years now with one of the consistantly worst kill ratios going I wanted to see what the aces did.

Out of curiosity and respect for Fester's and Rude's opinions I tried the single dot.  

WHAT A DIFFERENCE !!!

I must have tried all the sights out there in an attempt to get my rounds going where I want them to.  However get all that stuff out of the way and suddenly the it all comes clear.  What I am finding is that I learn with every burst what things should look like - I suppose I am re-learning gunnery because now an attack will be a few very short bursts to gauge the tracer paths then a longer one when it all looks right.  What I am finding is that as time goes on I need fewer predictor bursts because I am building a subconsciuos picture of what a good shot looks like in the canopy frame and sight square with reference to the dot. I think where the dot works in AH against RL is we have multiple closely spaced experiences of the view to record the successful components in our brain - in RL you don't get that learning opportunity and so you have to rely on aids and training to use them.  Also in RL you have a much fuller 3D visual enviroment in which to reference the sight rings.

In AH the clarity given by the clear sight frame together with the tracers and hit sprites make learning gunnery a lot simpler IMHO

Sparks

[airspro]

Yep couildn't agree more Sparks . "They" was right , get the extra stuff out of the way in this game and it's much better .

BTW , thanks Andy Bush for the red dot sight


Also thanks again Rude and Fester .