Ah, the oldman is back, been waiting for you.
Originally posted by Oldman731
Yo, Hortlund! Believe it or not, I didn't forget about you.
Heh heh. You lawyer, you. OF COURSE they thought they were fighting a just war. That doesn't mean it WAS a just war. If I think the people I'm shooting are witches, doesn't mean they ARE witches (was actually involved in such a case, long ago). Give you an example pertinent to the Germans, I will. All this Nazi business got me to dust off some old books, including a couple by Nazi pilots. And so we have Willi Heilmann (in his book, "I Fought You From the Skies," Award Books 1951, 1966, p. 122), ultimately a honcho in JG54 (altho' Caldwell thinks he's a liar about many things) declaiming at Christmas, 1944: "The times of real soldiering, of manliness, honour and duty have gone for ever. Look, we soldiers have wagered our lives and our blood to wrest a place in the sun once more for Germany, something the other world powers wanted to prevent. To help the Fatherland acquire fame and wealth; to make it large and strong so that it could become a flourishing well-run country guaranteeing our families a decent future." And we have Heinz Knoke, a pilot who circulated through a number of fighter formations, in his book "I Flew for the Fuehrer," Paperback Library, Inc., 1953, 1967, p. 12, saying: "The Hitler Youth was like every other Nazi organization. It eventually became intolerable, because of failure to apply correctly in practice the fundamental principles of National Socialism. It must be remembered, however, that the fundamental principles and ideals appealed very strongly to young epople. We supported those ideals with unqualified enthusiasm, and we were able to take a real pride in the powerful resurgence of our beloved country during the years when we were young."
Well, frankly, Hortlund, the youth of America, or England, or even Sweden, were not thinking quite that way at that time.
Heh, I guess this job really screws you up when it comes to debating huh. (btw, I would love to hear about those ppl shooting witches.. we dont get cases like that over here. Weirdest one I've had so far was two drunks that decided to butcher drunk nr 1:s pets with a meat-cleaver (3 puppies and 7
kittens). The prosecutor had lots of crimescene pictures too...that pretty much ruined lunch that day.)
I cant fail to notice though, that you still didnt answer my question. I think I'm gonna be persistent too, and ask for an answer. The question is an important one, since you seem to base alot of your "all Germans were bad"-notion on why Germany went to war, and what the Germans felt about that war.
"What's important is what's going on in their clever little minds when they set out on their journey to oblivion." <- your own words.
So what do we have so far? The Germans thought they were fighting a just war, but history would prove them wrong. The quotes you posted seems to give support for that theory too. And I cant help to notice that none of your quotes are along the lines of "Hurrah hurrah now we go to war, so that while we fight, the SS can butcher jews in Poland".
If you are looking for quotes from German soldiers who truly believed in the nazi ideals, and soldiers who fought and died for those ideals, you should look elsewhere. Try to dig up some quotes from Rudel, or from Skorenzy, or look at all the various Waffen SS-veterans, and their memoirs, alot of them has some really scary quotes. My point is, it is not hard to find examples
of fanatical nazis. But that doesnt really prove anything now does it? Although you will be hard pressed indeed, if you are to come up with any quote indicating that anyone not directly involved in the holocaust had any knowledge of it. But as I said, loose quotes from a couple of people prove nothing.
What I "oppose" is your notion that many/most of the Germans actually believed that they had been assaulted by the rest of the world and were merely acting defensively. This was the propaganda, true enough, but I've never seen anything to make me think that even the Germans believed it. Indeed, just the two isolated sources cited above are to the contrary.
So in other words, you agree with what I wrote about the official German version. The German PR machine was hammering into the minds of the German people that they were the victims of an aggression, but managed to turn the tables on their aggressors and defeat them.
But you went even further than that in your previous quote. " OF COURSE they thought they were fighting a just war" you said.
Gulf of Tonkin
Pearl Harbor
WTC
Examples of attacks that threw America into war. When these attacks occurred, do you think any Americans thought "hmm...I wonder if we were really attacked or if this is a government conspiracy to force us into an unjust war." Why would any German citizen (who possibly even heard the attack on the radio) believe anything but the official version fed to him? Also,
remember the situation for the ethnical Germans in Poland, remember the Danzig corridor. Situation between Germany and Poland was very tense even before that attack.
You just aren't trying. The Russians at Brest Litovsk certainly got a much worse deal from those sensitive Germans who were so concerned about whether the Russians would feel bad.
Hehehe true true, the Russian wwi peace deal has got to be at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to toejamty peace deals.
We'll go into more depth on the rise of Hitler some other day. This thread is already sort of unmanageable.
I'm looking forward to that, should be an interesting one.
Enough of the hindsight-is-perfect wail. Plenty of people at the time were pointing out that the Germans were following an evil path.
So what? I mean, seriously...?
There are lots of people who claim that the US are following an evil path right now...does that mean anyting? OF COURCE NOT.
