HO kills and a question about realism

[BotaBing]

I was just wondering about this today (for the 100th time probably).

It seems to me that a really large percentage of the kills I take in this game are from people who come at me head-on. While I know that there were instances of head on fighting in history, heck even still today probably, it sure seems to me that it happens WAY more often in this game than it would in real life.

In a head on attack, the aggressor pilot opens himself up to being shot, wounded, taking damage to his plane, leaving his team or base unprotected, etc. That hardly seems like a risk that a real pilot would have taken except in extreme circumstance or because he had no choice for some reason.

I often wonder if there is any merit to my question. Does the fact that this is a sim, where you can instantly reup, often right where the fight occurred, encourage unrealistic behavior, and if so, is there anything that can be done about it?

I think the answer is yes, it does. Anyone else have thoughts on the issue, and maybe what could be done to stop it?

[majic]

You have to see it coming way in advance to avoid it and not show the baddie your six.  I try if possible but it's gottin me shot down so many times.  It helps if you are in a better E state than the baddie.

[funkedup]

what could be done to stop it?

Turning away from them would be a good start.

[AKDejaVu]

I often wonder if there is any merit to my question. Does the fact that this is a sim, where you can instantly reup, often right where the fight occurred, encourage unrealistic behavior

Yes it does.  Now go through the history books and find just exactly what realistic behavior was.  Then decide how much fun you think that would be.

and if so, is there anything that can be done about it?

You want to modify behavior?  The only "solutions" I've seen to eliminate the HO created completely "unrealistic" behavior themselves.

I don't die in too many HO encounters.  Strangely, I start many fights from an HO position.  The main difference is what you decide to do... and how you decide to react.

AKDejaVu

[streakeagle]

I love the HO lottery.

Go along for the ride and get a kill with or without taking hits.
Go along for the ride and get killed with or without scoring hits.
Go along for the ride and get a mutual kill.
Evade, but take hits or get shot down.
Evade without taking hits, extend, and go home.
Evade without taking hits, extend, and try again.
Evade without taking hits, turn, and face another HO lottery.
Evade without taking hits, turn, get outmaneuvered, and get shot down.
Evade without taking hits, turn, outmaneuver the opponent, and get a kill.

If you go with the HO, its a shooting match/net lag battle, may the fastest/most accurate/luckiest man win. If you are good at head-on gunnery and fly a heavily armed aircraft that is accurate at long range, why not? Though shooting skills only determine a fraction of the probability of winning.

If try to evade the HO, but can't fly worth a darn or have a slow plane, you may find yourself in a worse position than the HO. At least with HO, you have some chance however small.

If you succeed at evading the HO, you get to enjoy the real meat of an air combat sim: trying to find a way to get your guns on the target before the target does the same to you. Of course, dissimilar aircraft is the "extra spicy" option I prefer.

If you don't like HOs learn to fly at the opponent head on in such a way to deny his shot opportunity as opposed to turning and running, this will give you the most options possible.

I am somewhat moody. Some days I never go for an HO shot, other days evasion never crosses my mind. On a day where I am shooting straight, beware! HO kills are cheap and easy if you can hit and kill your target when he thinks you can't (long range or headon high deflection shots).

I never whine about an HO. If I lose, I just grab another plane since the price is right (free ).

If you find HOs in the MA unrealistically common, then respawning, killshooter, and every other gamey feature used to piss off die-hard realism fanatics are probably bothering you as well.

"Relax... it's just a game."

[Soda]

You are never going to get a realistic representation of risk in AH or any other game.  It's hard to sell $15/month memberships when the first time you get killed online it automatically cancels your account and bans your IP so you can never sign up again.

-Soda
The Assassins.

[Puck]

You miss the point, Soda.  You pays your fifteen dollars, when you get killed some really ugly guys in cowboy boots show up and cancel YOU.  Your IP is reassigned to the next guy with a DHCP client.

It would be like the tobacco industry (killing all their best customers) only faster.

[Wotan]

dejavu is right...

HOs are easy enough to avoid and 9 times out of 10 they are easy to reverse. Lephturn has a good article on his website that will help you understand.

A lot of ho kills are a result of bad choices at the merge. Its funny because the same situation that caused the 1 st ho leads to the next 1.

For instance 2 guys coming head on both miss both flat turn and come right back headon. 1 dies and squeakes and complains "all you do is ho"

AKnimitz and AKcurly can show you how to enter a merge.

Then there are times when you are fighting and you are in a guns defense against the guy on your 6. You turn and there it is ho. Stuff happens.

Work on your own behavior and learn how to avoid and gain the advantage from a ho and you will be less worried about the other guy. You may learn to like it when they try to ho you.

[Saurdaukar]

Obviously I didnt fly aircraft in WWII but from what I gather - hot merges were probably common, but kills as a result were not.  I have yet to read of anyone killing a fighter HO (not a buff) in WWII.  There are a few reasons for the issue here that I have come up with:

1.  Hot merges in real life were random and unexpected  - little time was given to aim and as a result, hitting any aircraft showing its nose to you was more luck than anything else.
2.  There are no distance/ID icons in real life.  How do you know that you wouldnt be shooting at a freindly?
3.  Again, because of no distance icons, visual detection was difficult at any distance over 1000 yards (if not less) so you didnt exactly have time to manuvere your AC for a shot.
4.  Death.  You get shot down in AH, you up again, you get shot down in real life, youre dead or worse.  Im pretty sure that pilots didnt scream in at 800 knots closure with the hammer down and pass at 5-6 feet - this would be extremely nerve racking.  Im willing to bet that hot merges lasted about 1-2 seconds - one guy would find himself in firing position and the other would realize he has to move... quick.
6.  In addition to all this, if your goal is to shoot down enemy aircraft with guns, you WANT to be behind him - you can shoot him with a closure distance close to zip and he cant shoot you, period.  After a hot merge, planes would take part in the ensuing furball and then disengage after about 30-45 seconds when they found themselves at respective disadvantages.  Im pretty sure that no real life pilot wasted his time trying to reverse a disadvantaged situation - they pointed the nose down, WEPped it, and got the f@ck out of there.

Of course - if the game were like this, it wouldnt be much fun.  

[AKSWulfe]

Thach Weave, lotta kills and all from HOs.
-SW

[Don]

>>I often wonder if there is any merit to my question. Does the fact that this is a sim, where you can instantly reup, often right where the fight occurred, encourage unrealistic behavior, and if so, is there anything that can be done about it? <<

BotaBing:

Yer probably right to an extent about unlimited lives affecting HO's and other ..ahem..unrealistic aspects of the way some fly and fight but, it's a combat flight SIM and not a real life combat situation.
I dunno about the frequency of HO's tho, thats prolly a function of what you may be seeing at a given time in the game. I have grown to accept HO's as a part of the game. When I pick out a target and see him turn to me, I know he is gonna try an HO. I will not turn away and give him the edge, particularly on the merge. I shoot first, and usually hit first, then I try to roll out of his line of fire or duck my nose under him as we pass. I fought a guy a few days ago who came at me HO; I pinged him and we passed. He came back around as I turned after him. He tried another HO; I pinged him again and got him smoking. He didnt give up; turned around again and tried another HO; I shot him down. He came up on CH1 and attributed his loss to my lag;) I told him he shouldn't have gone for the HO on each pass; he didn't get it. I figured he never learned other forms of acm.
There are many who try the HO simply because they have cannon armed planes and think they have an easy mark. There are also those who seem not to understand that an opposing a/c with nose guns usually have an advantage in an HO situation. Either way, I suggest you get better at HO situations Because it aint gonna stop. It is an easy approach and less work than proper acm tactics, and you can't make others stop doing it because you don't like it or, disagree with it. HO's are allowed in the game/sim, therefore they are going to be used. Hell, I think there are too many Spits flying and every other player uses em I also know I can't stop it, so I kill em

[Don]

>>If you find HOs in the MA unrealistically common, then respawning, killshooter, and every other gamey feature used to piss off die-hard realism fanatics are probably bothering you as well. <<

Well said Streak.

[Shane]

easiest way to stop a HO is to do a lead turn/loop, get on their 6 and pop 'em because they gave you the angle.

i figure if enough people start doing this, it'll expose the inherent weakness in going for a HO, and hopefully darwinism will start to prevail as people try and actually use ACM.

they'll still die, tho' muahahahahaha.

[Don]

>>Thach Weave, lotta kills and all from HOs. <<

Thats quite a claim AKSWulfe. Where did you read that?
From what I read, the Thach weave was a defensive move developed by F4F pilots to combat the superior performance of the Zero. It basically was designed to provide mutual protection by wingmen.
From what I have read over the years, the tactic of most Pac theatre pilots was to manuever against nme a/c so as to bounce them from above and behind, not headon. The defense against the hi bounce was to turn up and into (HO) the hi bounce to combat it. The HO was not the acm move of choice; too dangerous for the combatants for obvious reasons.
Perhaps later on when the disparity between plane types went in favor of the Allied pilots, and air superiority went to the allied pilots that the incidence of HO's increased.
I have read in here posts by others citing Richard Bong, and how he used HOs all the time; not so. He flew the 38 and was a lousy marksman. He got his kills by boring in so close that he couldn't miss. If he were to have used HOs that close in he would've gotten himself killed.
My understanding of the hO is that it was a legitimate shot used in desperate situations; not as it is used in AH.

[whels]

http://www.ixpres.com/ag1caf/navalwar/defense.htm

whels

Originally posted by Don
>>Thach Weave, lotta kills and all from HOs. <<

Thats quite a claim AKSWulfe. Where did you read that?
From what I read, the Thach weave was a defensive move developed by F4F pilots to combat the superior performance of the Zero. It basically was designed to provide mutual protection by wingmen.
From what I have read over the years, the tactic of most Pac theatre pilots was to manuever against nme a/c so as to bounce them from above and behind, not headon. The defense against the hi bounce was to turn up and into (HO) the hi bounce to combat it. The HO was not the acm move of choice; too dangerous for the combatants for obvious reasons.
Perhaps later on when the disparity between plane types went in favor of the Allied pilots, and air superiority went to the allied pilots that the incidence of HO's increased.
I have read in here posts by others citing Richard Bong, and how he used HOs all the time; not so. He flew the 38 and was a lousy marksman. He got his kills by boring in so close that he couldn't miss. If he were to have used HOs that close in he would've gotten himself killed.
My understanding of the hO is that it was a legitimate shot used in desperate situations; not as it is used in AH.