Author Topic: "They raped everyone from eight to 80" (Read 4797 times)

--am-- · « **Reply #90 on:** May 28, 2002, 02:53:47 AM »

There is such joke. American general complains, that these Russian so quickly steal all their secrets, that planes which America only still draws, in Russia already fly.

I too can make a complaint that West has copied at Russia. For example processor PentiumII is made on the basis of the Russian project "Elbrus". Intel simply has offered many money to one of the developers "Elbrus" and he has left to work in USA.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #91 on:** May 28, 2002, 04:06:08 AM »

--am-- show us some proof of those concentration camps..

Because I have never EVER seen even one western or soviet source telling a word about them. Not a single reference..

You must have been listening some old propaganda. We have freedom of religion, speech and thought in finland ever since our country became independent - we don't send people who think differently to concentration camps or gulags like Russia used to do.

Like I said those camps had prisoners of war in them, soldiers desants and probably some civillians which had committed crimes.

When the war ended, part of the peace agreement forced finland to capture and imprison every soviet citizen that moved to finland after finland captured soviet soil in the continuation war. Those people also fought against russians in the finnish army. Russian government demanded them to be captured and be sent back to russia where they faced a certain death. This our government did.

The karelian ethnic prisoners were put to train cars, but they stoped the soldiers from locking the doors saying you can shoot us all here but you won't lock the doors.. Finnish soldiers who had been fighting a common enemy with many of those men disobeyed their orders and left the doors unlocked.

A majority of the prisoners escaped from the train soon after it took off without a shot being fired after them.

After this incident there were very few passengers left in the train and new guards were ordered to the train.

Probably your Soviet time historians distorted the truth (like they liked to do so much) by explaining that the people that never returned had been executed in finland LOL.

The fact is that very few prisoners ever wanted to go back to russia because they faced court martial and accuses of treason - which as legacy of Stalin meant a certain death in either Gulags or in the backyard - shot back in the head.

Stalin executed 6 million russians.. This doesn't even count in the people who were shot trying to escape.

--am-- · « **Reply #92 on:** May 28, 2002, 04:27:46 AM »

You inattentively read. I have quoted FINISH of the historians. I have given you the reference to their book. If you nothing know about camps in the country it does not mean, that them were not.

Also it is not necessary to me to tell fairy tales about a history of Russia. As was found out you a history of your country do not know.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #93 on:** May 28, 2002, 04:42:10 AM »

--am-- I'm waiting for the references.. Please try to get the authors names right so I can search them properly.

If the finnish camps were worse than germans I wonder why nobody raised hell about them.

If this thing really happened (which I extremely doubt) it has been the best kept secret.

Btw --am-- what happened to the finnish civillians that were captured by soviet troops? Or the ones that freewillingly moved to russia before the war to join the communist ideal world?

Much to their surprise they couldn't go back anymore and were sent to gulags when they expressed their wishes.

--am-- · « **Reply #94 on:** May 28, 2002, 04:48:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
--am-- I'm waiting for the references..

If this thing really happened (which I extremely doubt) it has been the best kept secret.

" A Political history of Finland. 1805-1995 ãã. " Ussila, Hettilya and Hevakivi
( I apologize for possible mistakes in names)

Quote

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Much to their surprise they couldn't go back anymore and were sent to gulags when they expressed their wishes.

You have concrete examples? Or how usually it is empty words repeating propagation of times of cold war?

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #95 on:** May 28, 2002, 04:53:21 AM »

--am-- yes I have read several stories of people who went over the border and had to fight their way back after they saw the system in work.

Please try to spell the authors right, I couldn't find anything remotely matching from those names..

Are you now saying that none of this happened, Stalin didn't kill 6 million russians, your borders were open for travel and people had freedom?

--am-- · « **Reply #96 on:** May 28, 2002, 05:03:38 AM »

To receive a political asylum officially all these people spoke that that from them wanted to hear western officials. It at all does not mean, that they spoke the truth.

Stalin did not kill 6 millions. There are archival data how many man was executed on political verdicts. This figure is smaller, than your fairy tales. Also it is the documentary confirmed figures, instead of propagation.

As to "freedom", you confuse the term "freedom" to the term "freedom of movement ". I understand, that for western people freedom it to arrive to any country of the world and to see there snackbar Macdonnalds. These to western people do not come ideas, that for other people in the world "freedom" it absolutely another. For this reason they with surprise looked at burning towers WTC.

--am-- · « **Reply #97 on:** May 28, 2002, 05:44:31 AM »

Osmo Jussila, Seppo Hentila, Jukka Nevakivi. Suomen polittinen historia 1809-1995. - Porvoo-Helsinki-Juva: Werner Soderstrom Osakeyhito, 1995.

The textbook for the students of the Helsinki university.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #98 on:** May 28, 2002, 06:34:28 AM »

Yes --am-- I found the book in question, for some reason my reply didn't post here though.

I have to go and borrow it from the library to verify your claims. I very much doubt the word concentration or death camp is used anywhere in the text though - simply because there were none.

If there were, there would have been trials for crimes against humanity for sure. None was even prosecuted for such thing however (to my knowledge.)

--am-- · « **Reply #99 on:** May 28, 2002, 06:40:50 AM »

You count, what the essence concentration of camp varies if it to name on another?

And what unless judged the Englishmen which by first in the beginning XX of century used of concentration camp in time wars in Southern Africa against the local inhabitants?

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #100 on:** May 28, 2002, 06:45:27 AM »

The essence is that a concentration camp is understood as a death camp. None of the finnish prison camps were built for the means of termination.

--am-- · « **Reply #101 on:** May 28, 2002, 06:55:52 AM »

You again confuse the terms. " Concentration camp " and " the camp of death " is different things. " The Camp of death " with gas chambers is intended for mass destruction. And " Concentration camp " this place the contents of the civil people without court, but only under the order of government or militarians. In " Concentration camps " the people died for famine (as in German or Finnish) and it was politics of the state.

Fishu · « **Reply #102 on:** May 28, 2002, 06:55:59 AM »

--am--,

War crimes?
How about soviet invasion to finland in 1939?
Without that, there wouldn't be a single war crime commited by finns, which is far far less than war crimes by soviet.

Sounds like you only have one book..
How about digging up some book of soviet war crimes for a change.. this time a book not made by the heros of soviet union.

Soviets had their concentration camps, or do you think they just said "oh hello you possible spy, have a nice day!"
Death toll was much more in those.
concentration camps werent for killing people to famine... you sure do have bizarre way to look into it.

heck, if soviet union would be such a dream state, why did they suck so much?
Communism might be good ideology, but it doesn't work.

Similar things to that what happend in China, where hundreds of students were killed, has happend in soviet union.
If thats not a crime, then what is it...?
National matter eh?

Can't believe that such closed mind people still exists, who even aren't so old.
Sure theres western propaganda, but well, you can't say I would be totally blinded by it, like you seem to be of your coutry's propaganda.
I do at least know and admit there was war crimes done on finnish side, just like on any other.. you still haven't done that of soviet union, which are far worse.

Anyway, im happy of my life as 'westerner', and when comparing to 'eastern', im extremely happy.
and meanwhile, I'll keep criticising americans and russians in turns.

Hristo · « **Reply #103 on:** May 28, 2002, 07:05:55 AM »

In my country we had a civil war 10 years ago. You know how it started ? Just like this thread, actually.

"Your grandafther killed my grandfather."
"Your people were slaughtering my people 50 years ago."
"Your nation is genocidal."
"You are a nation of thiefs and rapists".

Just some of the loudest cries. In no time, we had war in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. Only because of people who live in past.

Was it worth it ? To go into war over things forgotten ages ago ?Things who sick people dug out of here-say stories based in little fact ? And what if they are even true ? Fighting over them brought no dead to life - but it surely killed new ones. You should have watched the TV in Croatia or Serbia back then. It was a horror show with decapitated bodies mixed with the best of Goebbels' doctrine. Who needed that ?

Some even outdid their ancestors in crimes. All sides did it. All did it 50 years ago. All did it 10 years ago. It is not in red star, not in swastika, not even in halfmoon - it is in people who do it. And those you can find everywhere.

It saddens me that I find this thread very similar to the disputes raging in my country before the war. Some people never learn or are blind...I just don't know.

So, if you have any decency left, kill this thread.

--am-- · « **Reply #104 on:** May 28, 2002, 07:29:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fishu
--am--,

War crimes?
How about soviet invasion to finland in 1939?
Without that, there wouldn't be a single war crime commited by finns, which is far far less than war crimes by soviet.

Finland offered an exchange of territories. And USSR gave back twice more, than asked you. In Europe there was a war, and the city Leningrad was at the border. It was the question of national safety. But the Finnish government wanted war. It her also has received. The Finnish government counted, that ñïðîâàöèðîâàâ war it will involve England in war against USSR. When it has understood that it will not be already there was a war.

Quote

Originally posted by Fishu

Soviets had their concentration camps, or do you think they just said "oh hello you possible spy, have a nice day!"
Death toll was much more in those.
concentration camps werent for killing people to famine... you sure do have bizarre way to look into it.

USSR was the normal state. If you want to engage in the insult USSR, I can remind you, Finns, that your state exists on a card only due to Russia. That at first you were a province of the Swedish empire where you did not have any rights. Then when you already were in structure of the Russian empire to you the wide autonomy and constitution was given. Then in 1917 Communists you have given independence. In 1945 you did not judge in Nuremberg.

The crimes on war are made in all armies. But main in this question - whether the government of the country with these crimes struggles. The German government did not struggle with crimes against civilians, and even to permit them. The Soviet government struggled with crimes. It is the historical fact.