Combat Trim.

[hitech]

The first facts you must understand about trim is that there is no way possible to
Make it work like a real plane. The joystick interaction with the controls is a complete different
Mechanical setup.

In a real plane you would be holding the stick back to maintain level flight.
You would then turn the trim knob to relieve any pressure on the stick, with out the stick moving.
With a computer joystick this simply isn't possible. When you let go of the stick it will always go back to center.
Even force feedback sticks do not have the ability of adjusting stick spring center.


2nd problem is stick feel.
When pyro and I originally did some early models for CK we tried setting real settings for elevator deflection.

For example the spit's stick setup is capable of generating about 38 deg. AOA, and the plane stalls at around 17 degs AOA.
This would equate to pulling the stick less then halfway back would stall the plane.

Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view that’s the way the plane was set up it should be the same in the sim,

But if you step back and look at things another way, what did the plane feel like to fly and
Does it "FEEL" realistic things change.

When flying a real aircraft I since very little stick movement,
I perceive much more on how hard i'm pulling, how much i'm grunting, how much the stick is vibrating, then how much I’m moving the stick.
To accomplish some of this we use the stall horn, now the stall horn is NOT realistic by any means, but some method is needed to give
You the same realistic feed back from the plane that you get in real life so in the perception since it is very realistic.

Therefore you are forced to choose a method that works and gives the perception of reality.

We chose to setup controls that will let you stall with full stick deflection unless you are limited by control force.

Now comes the trim problem.
At slower speeds where do you scale the stick movement from and how do you add in trim.
The method we have been using was to always give you x degs. Of elevator travel then
just add that deg to the current trim deg.
This leads to problems if you are slow with nose down trim you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall.
This isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope,
Very few planes could you not generate enough stick force to pull into stall at slower speeds.
This over sight is why people use trim when in a slower turn fight and hence get an advantage by giving more up trim at slower speeds.

Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending
Angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.

There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight advantage.
Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center the ball is exactly the same thing.
And the plane will fly the same under both methods.

Now onto how the combat trim works. It's not a perfect trimming system.
Best way to describe how it works is take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.
Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.
All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed.
Everything else still functions the same, you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.
You change throttle settings the plane still rolls do to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.
Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim.

In the end all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls.

As to how its controls work first there is a key to toggle it on or off.
2nd touching manual trim will always turn it off.
3rd there is a setting to weather you want it to always be on or off when coming out of existing auto pilots mode.

Now as to are we loosing sight of pleasing the realism crowd?

That is for you to judge.

At the same time we are adding things like combat trim, we are also adding things like icons now disappear
If an enemy plane is behind a canopy rail, under wings, your low 6, behind hill's or under the nose excreta.

We have spent a lot of time researching and changing pieces of the flight model that we were not
Hitting real world numbers. Now these changes really won't effect the "GAME" much, they will change tactics used.
Things like horizontal to vertical transitions will be much more effective. Things like lead turns will be more effect because
After a 180-deg turn you will have more speed left to take the shot on the b&z bogie.
But in the end neither combat trim nor the flight model effect the game play in any way.
It's still who can fly the plane to the edge, knows ACM best, who know his planes abilities vs. his opponents, who can shoot well,
Who can chose his fights or which plane to shoot first.
All these things still make the best pilots what they are.


HiTech

[Pongo]

VERY COOL

[minus]

Thx HT,    please  did u remember the old  I-force  on WB ???
 well it was 1.7 Wb wehn i bought the Ch force FX it costed my at that time 300$
it used I force input and it Worked Fantasticly !!!!!!!
even the triming can be fell on in or stall   and many other thing
after when u change to DX 5 foce input the aviable drivers on DX for FX force suxx big time
tested the MS forcefedback, sory , it never will be like a i force is it to arcade vibrator for hungry girl
well thx and give us the 1,04 plzzzzzzzzzzzz
plzzzzzzzz
ostwind to finaly  punich all the c hog pnzr wulchers !

[RAM]

First of all thanks for your answer, Hitech. Very much appreciated.

Now I have a lot of questions. Seems the CT is different than what I've thought of, still I still fear some things.

Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending
Angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.

I know that computer games dont give the right feel of airplane controls. I agree and like this change. I always had wondered if that "trim up" help in the close turning was realistic. I see now it wasnt. Great to fix it!.

There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight advantage.
Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center the ball is exactly the same thing.
And the plane will fly the same under both methods.

Sorry ,HT but that is simply not true.A plane will fly exactly the same with the stick and rudders deflected so the plane flies straight, or if it is trimmed so the rudder and stick are centered.

BUT (and here comes my fear), to keep trim with rudder input is MUCH harder than with trim, at least I feel it like that. Rudder untrimmed causes a lot of E-bleeding, so giving a lot of edge to the well trimmed aircraft. It is HARD to keep a plane well trimmed in the rudder in a close fight and there is a HUGE advantage here for the "player" that flies with CT on, because it will trim the rudder for the player.

I find this unnaceptable, sorry   . One of the biggest challenges in Aces High is to learn to do proper turning with no skidding and the "ball" in the center. If the computer does it for you, where is the challenge?...Sorry but I cant agree with this thing, HT   .

Now onto how the combat trim works. It's not a perfect trimming system.
Best way to describe how it works is take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.
Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.
All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed.
Everything else still functions the same, you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.
You change throttle settings the plane still rolls do to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.
Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim.

I am a bit lost here...please be patient with me. CT will trim your plane for SPEED changes only? ok...then it keeps the plane trimmed in all 3 axis, isnt it?...then if you go from idle to WEP, the torque will make the plane go out of trim. So far so good. BUT then the CT will Auto trim the plane for you?. Sorry I dont see where is the improvement here, HT, is exactly what I had in mind when I though of a EZtrim.

Right now,with the current trimming, in that situation, at first the torque acts untrimming the plane and then you trim it manually. That means pilot workload.
 
CT will trim the plane for you. Pilot doesnt have to look at it. No workload involved, so the pilot can focus on killing the con he is fighting with.

Sorry I dont like it, it is just the thing I had in mind when StSanta wrote about the CT in the other thread.  

In the end all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls.

So giving the CT pilot a disntinctive advantage because he can focus on killing the enemy plane instead of keeping himself's airborne.

Maybe I am missing something here, but for sure this sounds like EAW for me, HT. I Dunno...please if I am wrong tell me, but for me this seems EZmode, something that gives one side of the party a CLEAR advantage. The workload involved in trimming the plane is heavy, more in unstable planes like G10. If the computer trims the plane for you, then where is the challenge?.

  Hitech...sorry...but you are describing just the change I cant accept in Aces High   .

I hope that I have understood something bad. Please, if I have done it, put me straight...

But for sure for me this is bad news  



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-04-2000).]

[hitech]

Ram you have misunderstood. So just wait and see.

HiTech

[SOB]

Thanks for the post HT...lots of good info.  Now, get the hell out of here, and enjoy the last day of a long weekend.  If you haven't been working, that is  

[RAM]

CC...glad to hear it
 

[Dnil]

egads!! does this mean the WB super E retaining spits are back?

Seems like a crude Fly by wire system.  I wait to pass judgement of course.  Must try before I can comment.  

------------------
Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[popeye]

HT, thanks for the info!

I guess I don't understand why I would want to use manual trims instead of CT.  The only time I use manual trim now, is to bring the plane back into trim as my speed changes.  Is there some other effect beside speed change that requires trimming?  Maybe fuel or ordinance use?

Can you tell I'm not a RL pilot?  

popeye

[easymo]

 Looks like ram hit all the things that crossed my mind. I feel like i wasted the last 6 months. As bytor pointed out in another thread. I have reached a point where I can turn fight with a BnZ type plane pretty good. This was all done with constant manuel trimming , of course.

 It looks like the playing field has been leveled. This is no doubt more marketable. And from what RL pilots have posted, Maby even more realistic.( They say trim tabs are to small to be control serface,s anyway). Still I feel disappointed by the sound of this.

[LLv34_Snefens]

I read it totally different that you RAM.

Lets see, the above is in the order of RAM, Hitech and me:

"One of the biggest challenges in Aces High is to learn to do proper turning with no skidding and the "ball" in the center. If the computer does it for you, where is the challenge?...Sorry but I cant agree with this thing, HT."

"Everything else still functions the same, you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.
You change throttle settings the plane still rolls do to torque. Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.
Drop gear you will again be out of trim. If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim."

So you will still get skidding when turning. the CT doesn't adjust for this.


"I am a bit lost here...please be patient with me. CT will trim your plane for SPEED changes only? ok...then it keeps the plane trimmed in all 3 axis, isnt it?...then if you go from idle to WEP, the torque will make the plane go out of trim. So far so good. BUT then the CT will Auto trim the plane for you?. Sorry I dont see where is the improvement here, HT, is exactly what I had in mind when I though of a EZtrim."

"Best way to describe how it works is take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.
Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.
All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed."

So the way I read it is that that it will only trim the plane for a certain speed at a certain torque. If anything else is changed (throttle, gear, flaps, damage) the CT will not take it into account.

"In the end all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls."

"So giving the CT pilot a disntinctive advantage because he can focus on killing the enemy plane instead of keeping himself's airborne."

Well, as written above CT doesn't trim for your manouvers or cut throttles, etc. you still need to work the rudder and so on yourself.

So basically I think it is a good way of implement this thing.


------------------
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34

[SOB]

I agree, the way I read it is that it'll keep the plane trimmed when you're flying in optimum conditions without the sudden control movements & direction changes, etc accompanied with a dogfight.  Sounds like it'll help keep your nose down when you're diving down on a bogey, but what happens when you get to the deck...with your trim keeping your nose down, I bet you'll have a nice surprise waiting for you when you try to pull out  


SOB

[AKDejaVu]

It looks to me as if it simply trims your aircraft to an optimal setting for the speed.. regardless of plane orientation.  Its not taking out sideslip or any of that... simply setting the planes trim neutral for level flight at that speed (even if you are not flying level).

Its table based, not aircraft pitch/yaw based.  It doesn't help you through turns or prevent sideslip.

I'm curious as to what it will do on a hammerhead rope-a-dope move.  I can definately remain neutral now that I've heard some facts.

AKDejaVu

[Renfield]

I dunno - the way I read it, it sounds like it will be a welcom addition to the sim and not at all like what it originally sounded like.

I think we should all just wait and fly it to see. This is obviously a hard thing to describe.

But the stuff about masking the icons sounds great!

[Sharky]

HT,

Thanks for the info.  Now can you explain a couple of the things you said.

I understand from your explaination that in say a P-51 that if, for example, you are holding the stick say a little forward and a little to the right to mantain level flight.  When the trim tabs are moved to trim the plane that the stick remains in that foward-right position just that it would now take little to no effort on the pilot to keep it there?  IE the stick is not returned to center when the trim tabs are positioned?

Second,
 

The method we have been using was to always give you x degs. Of elevator travel then just add that deg to the current trim deg.
This leads to problems if you are slow with nose down trim you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall.
This isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope,

Is this why in every sim I've ever flown that at low speed with full flaps on final approuch, I can't use trim to flare the aircraft as I've seen pilots to many times?

I have no experiance flying any real airplanes but I have about 200 take off and landings looking over the shoulder of C-12 pilots, and I've always thought that I should be able to use trim in WB and AH to do some of the things I've seen those pilots do.

Thanks,
Sharky