Author Topic: Combat Trim.  (Read 2688 times)

Offline hblair

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2000, 04:27:00 PM »
Sounds good HT, I know you guys have bookoos of time and hard programming in this.

Just as I figured, too many people doing the old "sky is falling" routine. Seems some people are just petrified by any kind of change. I, for one, welcome it. I might not use the new feature, but it may make it easier for the new guys to fly.

Worse case scenario, it might not be perfect to start with, but hasn't HTC been receptive to our views in the past? I trust that they have a clue to what they are doing.  

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2000, 04:33:00 PM »
Ok, picture this scenario: you're diving for an enemy in your G10. The enemy does some violent maneuvers and then goes vertical, pulling up. Because you are a LW g10 driver with superior skills to this Spit dweeb, you easily follow. But, your speed is significantly lower, and without trim the plane rolls to the left and pulls up.

As you get the snapshot, you center the joystick. Eeek, your plane rolls right, goes up, shot missed; you've not learned thhe lesson that you have to either provide trim or compensate with the joystick.

Consider the same thing with CT. Table based, you might be slightly off in in trim. Center joystick. Ah. Great shot, target dead..

Consider the case when you are slowly gaining on a Spitfire. He breaks, and you turn with him in your A8 for about 45 degrees, normal procedure for a snapshot. Due to no icons when plane under nose or just bad shot, you miss. Spit breaks hard, does a 360, is d.500 your 6 and you're either not gaining much or he is gaining. You die due to two Hispano hits.

These are my worries about v 1.04. Looks like new fm will neuter the advantage of my fav ride, the 109G10. It can climb and go fast, but is not good for high speed deflection shots due to poor roll rate and high speed handling. Since we ain't getting more of a speed increase in z&b, but the enemy can turn more, it'll be a bit more difficult to bleed him slow so you can kill, which means easier for the Spit to equate e status - turn hard, go a bit lower, pull straight up and force the HO if the other guy is diving. Then roll out, higher than the enemy but with less speed. Basically same e state.

I.e seen thse kind of reverses many times in AH - my guesses is that they'll become much more prevalent if turns aren't penalized as much in terms of e bleed. But if the current fm is wrong, change it.

I'll just fly my A8 more carefully, and bug more often. Squelch ch1 to avoid screaming you &%(/ spit HO dweeb and the "u r a c0W@rD 190 ruNn3R". For a plane with the turning characteristics of the A8 (which quite basically scream "never, ever turn. If you, do, I'll bite you in the butt." an additional boost of e after turn won't be as much advantage as in a Spit V. The A5 will benefit from it more though, so we'll haved more A5 dweebs.

What I am saying, before some of you jump to conclusions, is that it'll have quite an impact on tactics. T&B'ers capabilities will have increased more than Z&B'ers, since the former rely on turns much more. If that was the way it was, fine with me. Might even take the F4 or G2 instead of the G10.

But, planes which are a delight to both turn fight and e fight in (N1K, Spit IX for instance), will be very sweet planes indeed.

I'll have to beat t&b'ers either with turning myself, or with getting higher speeds, allowing for less off-nose separation in snapshots.

Please do not consider this as a whine, but read it for what it is; an attempt to analyze the consequences of more e retention in turns for both z&b'ers and t&b'ers. This is a whine:
damned spit turns like a UFO! What does it have, rocket boosters? Hell, he shouldn't have followed me, not after doigng a 180 turn - he couldn't! Why didn't my rope a dope work? Hell,. he had MORE e after the 180 degree turn than before!".

Hope ya can see the difference  .

</anti whine entry>

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2000, 04:39:00 PM »
thanks i like it sound like a improvement to me. thanks for the explanation it is much appreciated

Offline Minotaur

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2000, 04:42:00 PM »
HT;

CC and Thanks!  

However....

Next time, please try to wait just one day more.  

I am curoius to see how many players will go into the "I'm Quitting" mode prior to any changes actually being made to AH and/or the actual change actually tested out by that player to see if their worst nightmares actually come to pass and the game becomes actually unplayable or not.  

Actually, I'm only kidding!  

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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2000, 04:42:00 PM »
No one commented on the disapearing Icons feature HT mentioned! about time
People have whined on this one for a year and they are doing it....
WTG HT

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2000, 04:56:00 PM »
Pongo, true. That feature is very welcome.

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Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34

[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 09-04-2000).]
Snefens, Lentolaivue 34.
Location: Aarhus, Denmark

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Offline ra

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2000, 05:59:00 PM »
<<Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly. We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending Angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.>>

This will be another nice change.  Right now if you are a zoom climb with a lot of Up trim, when you get to the top of the climb and you want to push the nose down, all you do is mush because your down elevator is restricted by the up trim setting.  Getting blasted in while this mushy condition is very frustating  


<<...low 6, behind hill's or under the nose excreta.>>

HT you can't trust a SpellChecker.  It let you get away with 'excreta' instead of 'et cetera' because excreta actually is a word:  "Waste matter, such as sweat, urine, or feces, discharged from the body."    

At least I hope you meant et cetera    


ra

Vyper

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2000, 06:10:00 PM »
Guys,

I trust Hitech and Pyro.  Every change that has been introduced so far has enhanced AH.  With a batting average like that, I'm willing  to bet on them and anxious to see what's under the hood of 1.04.

I'm actually more concerned about the reduction in energy bleed during induced drag conditions.  With my 25,000 pounds of thrust out the back of my F-16, she slows down in a heapum hurry when I smack out 9 g's.  This is especially true at altitude.  On the deck she'll happily g my lips off but as I progress into the teens the energy sheds quickly.  Don't even talk about the high 20's, induced drag in that thin air eats airspeed by the ton.

The current flight model 'feels' right from my (albeit jet) experience.  I'm curious to see how the new system works out but think those propellor driven aircraft would shed speed fairly fast (even with their straight wings versus my fully programming leading edge flaps).


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Vyper
134th Fighter Squadron
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Renfield

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2000, 06:15:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo:
No one commented on the disapearing Icons feature HT mentioned!...WTG HT

Uh - I did! See above  


Offline Badger

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2000, 07:39:00 PM »
HT.... <S>

So....do you think an old warrior like me and some others who've been getting cabin fever in the MA, will have a renewed "fun factor" with these changes forthcoming in v1.04?

I won't hold you to it, but what would be your best guess based upon the many discussions we've had over time.

Thanks.....

Regards,
Badger

Offline Westy

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2000, 07:51:00 PM »
 Thanks for this explanation HiTech. I've had a dead PC for two days and this being my first post to read was a refreshing relief.
 I understand why you implemented (in WB's) and even more on what you'll be implemening here. I like it.

-Westy

Offline Tac

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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2000, 07:53:00 PM »
HOT DOG!  

That sounds GREAT HT! <S>!

Now, wheres my X-Wing???  

AKSeaWulfe

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2000, 08:11:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vyper:

I'm actually more concerned about the reduction in energy bleed during induced drag conditions.  With my 25,000 pounds of thrust out the back of my F-16, she slows down in a heapum hurry when I smack out 9 g's.  This is especially true at altitude.  On the deck she'll happily g my lips off but as I progress into the teens the energy sheds quickly.  Don't even talk about the high 20's, induced drag in that thin air eats airspeed by the ton.

YOu are still conscious doing 20 gs? I always thought structural limits for F16s were in the teens?
I dunno nothing about jets anyway though, I'm just curious.
-SW


Offline BBGunn

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2000, 08:13:00 PM »
I frequently try to anticipate a speed situation and set trim accordingly even if I hold pressure on the stick while building up to 450mph or whatever.  I really had no problem with the trim- you have to trim a plane to help keep it under control without undo stress etc.. Historical accounts indicate that inexperienced pilots missed targets quite a bit because their plane was out of trim.  So whats the problem?  You can do the same in AH. Seems like it was modeled OK to me.

Vyper

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Combat Trim.
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2000, 08:17:00 PM »
AK,

A little miscommunication.  Mid 20's is in thousands of feet.  The Viper is limited to 9 g's by the flight control computer (it will overshoot to 9.5 if you really snatch it at high speed).

The energy bleedoff really goes up as you go higher.  Neither the engine nor the wings are as efficient in the thinner air.

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Vyper
134th Fighter Squadron
VTANG