Author Topic: Brief thoughts on Sadam  (Read 1658 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2002, 03:02:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr


And just how would they get enough anthrax into this country? How would they handle it? Would they be able to cover their tracks? How many agents would be stuffing envelopes? High probability that a few agents self-contaminate themselves. Who would they mail them to? The main suspect seems to be an employee (US citizen, caucasian, non-arab) of a biological facility. If any foreign 'enemy' of the United States was caught in a NBC attack against US citizens, on US soil, you can bet that country would probably be wiped out. All active military personnel have been given the anthrax vacine series, so they'll be unaffected by an anthrax attack.
Look at the 9-11 attacks. We attacked a country (Afghanistan) because it was weak and not our ally. We had to strike at someone. Why not Saudi Arabia? Most of the terrorists were from there. OOPS not them, they're our ally. Egypt? Nope, our ally too. Pakistan? Nope, our ally plus they've got nukes.
How many Afghanistan people were responsible for 9-11?

I think you are approaching the problem from the wrong end.

First you need to acknowledge the fact that there is a clear and present threat aimed at the US. If you feel a need to argue over various methods of terrorist attacks we can do that to, but that is generally very futile and pointless, since the terrorists have proven to be pretty imaginative.

But ok, how would Saddam get enough anthrax into the US, how would he deploy it, and would it be possible to cover his tracks afterwards (I hope you are aware of the fact that there are literary thousands of ways to perform such an attack). How's this then.

D-70
An Iraqi agent buys 10 000 envelopes in various stores in a couple of different cities in the US. These envelopes are then sent to Italy, from there they are sent to Beirut, from Beirut to Damascus, from Damascus to Iraq.

D-50
The letters arrive to Iraq where they are taken to Bio-lab #4. At Bio-lab #4 each envelope is filled with weapons grade anthrax, and sealed. Each letter is put in a plastic bag, all these plastic bags with letters are put in empty Siemens marked cardboard boxes, these are put in a container and put on a truck.

D-45
The truck arrives in Beirut after having driven through Syria. The container is loaded on a Portuguese freighter.

D-30
The Portuguese freighter arrives in Amsterdam. The container is moved to another ship, this time it is a Canadian freighter. The container is painted in the standard P&O colors, documentation is manufactured that shows that the container is filled with computer equipment from Siemens in Germany, and that it is on its way to Chicago. The Canadian ship leaves port and sets course for Boston.

D-7
The freighter arrives in Boston. The container is moved from the ship to a truck.

Al Queida sleeper cell #14 is activated in Kutztown, NY.

D-6
The truck arrives in Kutztown, NY where sleeper cell #14 takes care of the cargo. The driver of the truck continues towards Chicago.

D-5
The truck driver arranges a spectacular car crash, driving his truck off a bridge. Sleeper cell #14 is busy writing addresses on 10 000 envelopes. They are wearing bio-suits while doing this.

D-2
Sleeper cell #14 has finished writing addresses. The envelopes are put in plastic bags and loaded into 4 cars. The 4 members of sleeper cell #14 gets in 4 different cars, and heads off in different directions. They leave a incendiary bomb behind in the old wooden house they have been renting the last 7 year.
D-1
The incendiary device goes off, causing the house to go up in a blaze, removing all anthrax remains from the building.

D
Sleeper #1 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes as he is driving from Los Angeles to San Diego.  
Sleeper #2 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes from New York to Boston.
Sleeper #3 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes from Miami to Orlando.
Sleeper #4 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes from Dallas to Austin.

After they have finished, they are all contaminated, so each one straps on an explosive belt, walks into the nearest gas station and blows himself up together with some unfortunate customers.
 
All the letters are addressed to the homes of normal people all across the US.  

No, a couple of questions.
When the first anthrax cases are discovered a couple of days later...who do you nuke and why? Where is the paper trail leading back to Iraq? If you did an analysis of the anthrax, it would show that it was manufactured in Chernoblinsk Bio weapons facility in the Soviet Union in 1954.

What would the consequences be if the Iraqis used smallpox instead of anthrax?

Offline Hortlund

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2002, 03:10:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr


Riiiight, and how would he deliver said nuke? How would he cover his tracks? He is more into preserving his life as well as Iraq, over his trying for the destruction over the US. Trust me on this: He or any enemy of the US will be wiped out if caught attacking the US with weapons of mass destruction.


Uh, a nuke pretty much covers its own tracks. You can get it into the US using the same method I described in the anthrax scenario above. Just make sure the nuke is travelling inside a lead safe. Sleeper #1 loads the nuke into a truck and drives into whatever city is to be targeted.

Examinations of the residue afterwards would probably show that the nuke was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1972 or something like that. Soviet Records will show that all nukes in that batch were used in SS-18 rockets. These rockets were disbanded in the 90s, and all those nuclear warheads were destroyed. The person responsible for the destruction of the nukes went missing in 95 and no one knows where he is (he is dead in the Syrain desert).

Nuke who and why?

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Re: Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2002, 03:13:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr

The US will attack only if the political domestic mess gets worse (If Bush is shown to be tied into that mess further than he is).

No, there is a new president in the White House now, a good one, you are thinking of Clinton and the battle of the blue dress...that ended with war against Sudan, Kosovo and Afghanistan.

Offline Hortlund

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2002, 03:14:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)


As far as I know Arabs are not part of the ruling class in Iraq...


who cares?

Offline Dowding (Work)

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2002, 03:36:33 AM »
Quote
who cares?


Aaah, a verbose response from the almighty Steve Hortlund (for it is he).

Erm... I believe you were the one making the point that you would not sell arms to Arabs. I was merely pointing out your ignorance in the matter. Selling arms to Iraq would not involve involving yourself with any Arabs whatsoever; in fact, the weapons would probably be used against the Marsh Arabs in the south of the country. Fancy that!

Carry on.

Offline Hortlund

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2002, 03:42:16 AM »
Bah

Anyone who is living in the sand, wearing rags and praying on a mat = arab regardless of what they might choose to call themselves. (nope, no predjudices here :D)

Offline wsnpr

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2002, 05:57:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

I think you are approaching the problem from the wrong end.

First you need to acknowledge the fact that there is a clear and present threat aimed at the US. If you feel a need to argue over various methods of terrorist attacks we can do that to, but that is generally very futile and pointless, since the terrorists have proven to be pretty imaginative.

But ok, how would Saddam get enough anthrax into the US, how would he deploy it, and would it be possible to cover his tracks afterwards (I hope you are aware of the fact that there are literary thousands of ways to perform such an attack). How's this then.

D-70
An Iraqi agent buys 10 000 envelopes in various stores in a couple of different cities in the US. These envelopes are then sent to Italy, from there they are sent to Beirut, from Beirut to Damascus, from Damascus to Iraq.

D-50
The letters arrive to Iraq where they are taken to Bio-lab #4. At Bio-lab #4 each envelope is filled with weapons grade anthrax, and sealed. Each letter is put in a plastic bag, all these plastic bags with letters are put in empty Siemens marked cardboard boxes, these are put in a container and put on a truck.

D-45
The truck arrives in Beirut after having driven through Syria. The container is loaded on a Portuguese freighter.

D-30
The Portuguese freighter arrives in Amsterdam. The container is moved to another ship, this time it is a Canadian freighter. The container is painted in the standard P&O colors, documentation is manufactured that shows that the container is filled with computer equipment from Siemens in Germany, and that it is on its way to Chicago. The Canadian ship leaves port and sets course for Boston.

D-7
The freighter arrives in Boston. The container is moved from the ship to a truck.

Al Queida sleeper cell #14 is activated in Kutztown, NY.

D-6
The truck arrives in Kutztown, NY where sleeper cell #14 takes care of the cargo. The driver of the truck continues towards Chicago.

D-5
The truck driver arranges a spectacular car crash, driving his truck off a bridge. Sleeper cell #14 is busy writing addresses on 10 000 envelopes. They are wearing bio-suits while doing this.

D-2
Sleeper cell #14 has finished writing addresses. The envelopes are put in plastic bags and loaded into 4 cars. The 4 members of sleeper cell #14 gets in 4 different cars, and heads off in different directions. They leave a incendiary bomb behind in the old wooden house they have been renting the last 7 year.
D-1
The incendiary device goes off, causing the house to go up in a blaze, removing all anthrax remains from the building.

D
Sleeper #1 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes as he is driving from Los Angeles to San Diego.  
Sleeper #2 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes from New York to Boston.
Sleeper #3 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes from Miami to Orlando.
Sleeper #4 mails 2500 envelopes in batches of 5 in 500 post boxes from Dallas to Austin.

After they have finished, they are all contaminated, so each one straps on an explosive belt, walks into the nearest gas station and blows himself up together with some unfortunate customers.
 
All the letters are addressed to the homes of normal people all across the US.  

No, a couple of questions.
When the first anthrax cases are discovered a couple of days later...who do you nuke and why? Where is the paper trail leading back to Iraq? If you did an analysis of the anthrax, it would show that it was manufactured in Chernoblinsk Bio weapons facility in the Soviet Union in 1954.

What would the consequences be if the Iraqis used smallpox instead of anthrax?


Wow great imagination. Would make a good Hollywood movie :)
Now, just who would they mail those envelopes to and what addresses would they use? What about postage?

Offline wsnpr

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2002, 06:02:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Bah

Anyone who is living in the sand, wearing rags and praying on a mat = arab regardless of what they might choose to call themselves. (nope, no predjudices here :D)



Um ok, whatever you say. I do see ignorance.

Offline Hortlund

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2002, 06:16:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr


Wow great imagination. Would make a good Hollywood movie :)
Now, just who would they mail those envelopes to and what addresses would they use? What about postage?


Dont they have phonebooks in the US? If yes, then all you have to do is grab 10 000 names from those phonebooks. And I think they would be smart enough to put stamps on all envelopes too.

But you didnt answer my questions.

Offline rogwar

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2002, 08:53:38 AM »
Hortlund those were some very well constructed scenarios.

I believe Sadam would like to have a nuke brought into the USA and cook it off in a major city, while maintaining plausable deniability. I'd rather that not happen.

wsnpr a basic mailing machine can be purchased in advance along with an included postage meter that is prepaid. You buy postage electronically from the postal service. We have one sufficient enough to do the job in our mailroom where I work and it's a basic model. They get a lot more sophisticated.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2002, 09:01:12 AM by rogwar »

Offline 10Bears

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2002, 04:08:10 PM »
Quote
Dont they have phonebooks in the US? If yes, then all you have to do is grab 10 000 names from those phonebooks. And I think they would be smart enough to put stamps on all envelopes too.


It would be just a coincidence all the addresses were for Democratic voters

Hortland, your insane...

The only bio attack suspect we’ve had is from some right wing wacko working at Fort Derrick.
It doesn’t matter that this would be a Japanese style sneak attack on a country that hasn't even threatened us.

It doesn‘t matter that we don‘t even try to get a UN Security council resolution to make this attack legal. This would be in direct violation of international law. The Rule of Law is the pillars of a civilized world. Without it you have anarchy. It makes it easier for any country to go to war for any reason. Is that really what you want? You know by blowing off international law, you are really flipping off the entire world.

It doesn’t matter if America can’t get funding from allies for part of the cost, American tax payers will carry the burden, understandably , president Cheney will loot Iraq as much as possible that of course is his real goal.

It doesn’t matter that specially build C130s can only carry one M1A1 at a time.. that it would take months to build up the forces needed for inter-city fighting.. Inter city fighting?... You can bet a dollar Iraqis learned a thing or two from Desert Storm fighting on the open desert. Mogadishu with a bullet.

It doesn’t matter that most of the Generals at the Pentagon (who have experience fighting real wars) are against this wild eyed nonsense.

It doesn’t matter that the U.S. would be stirring up a billion Muslims all over the world who would be coming to the aid of Iraq. You can kiss goodbye any hope of peace settlements anywhere in that part of the world.

Nope, the only thing that matters to Dick Cheney is to get that oil. And to get those stories off the wire about him as CEO of Halliburton DIRECTED his company to use the new fancy accounting method. Other corporations saw that and said well hell, if he can do it so can we.

The only hope I see is if all the Demos and quite a few moderate Republicans hold their nose and vote for Democrats this November. They could cancel funding for this madness.

As for you Hortland, besides putting you in a straightjacket, is if we attack Sweden kill all their leaders and convert all their women to Wicken.

Offline Thrawn

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2002, 04:15:08 PM »
Can the US afford to have a war against Iraq, right now?

Didn't the other middle eastern countries say they would help defend Iraq, a little while ago?

Can the US afford to fight them as well?

Offline Hortlund

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2002, 04:20:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 10Bears

Hortland, your insane...
 


Well, gee thanks...

Offline Toad

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2002, 05:00:08 PM »
"U.S. Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, says a war with Iraq is likely...

*

"I hope that the president and I hope the leadership of Congress will, before the end of this year, schedule a debate in which we will grant President Bush authority to take action to remove Saddam Hussein," Lieberman said.....

*

On Sunday, Lieberman urged quick action.

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States of America," he said. "





Senators urge Bush to make case for Iraq war


Yeah.. those dang saber rattling Republicans!  :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Brief thoughts on Sadam
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2002, 05:09:10 PM »
Lawmakers back proposal to oust Hussein

"Sen. Evan Bayh, D.-Indiana, a member of the Senate Select Intelligence committee along with Shelby, said he would endorse whatever action Bush takes against Hussein "wholeheartedly," but added that the United States would need "to develop as much diplomatic support as we can."....


.."I think there is broad support for a regime change in Iraq," Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota,....



....Gephardt said he didn't see any conflict between sending U.S. Special Forces to capture and, if necessary, kill Hussein, and a U.S. policy against assassinating heads of state...."

ooooooooooooooooooooo! Those Dang REPUBLICANS! They should just leave Saddam alone!

:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!