Hurricane IIc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yeeeeeesssss!

[DingHao2]

Sorry about not being clear in what i meant.  I meant that the Vietnamese were very effective against the Americans for the training that they recieved.  I believe that, had it not been for the superior turning ability and gun superiority, then the Vietnamese would probably been caught in a turkey shoot.  This proves that, despite all the facts, a plane w/ superior turning ability and gun armament will be more effective than any fast, poorly-gun armed plane.  The difference in training between the Americans and the Vietnamese probably was the reason why the Americans had a higher k/d ratio over the NVAF.  If, however, the Vietnamese had recieved training equal to the US, then they would have easily had a higher k/d ratio than the Americans.

And what do I think the RAF should have?  What they need, isn't another fighter now (especially considering how far ahead of everyone else they were when they introduced the Spit Mk. IX).  To be more specific, I would say the RAF actually needs the following:

A tank buster: Hurricane Mk. IID (2x40 mm's), not IIC.
A jabo: Mosquito Mk. VI
A medium bomber: Wellington, or Stirling (sp?)


And what do I think the LW needs?  A little different than the RAF needs.  Read the following:

A tank buster: Ju-87G (2x37 mm's)
A jabo: Me-410 B-2 or B-1
A heavy bomber: He-177 A-5, Ju-188, Ju-290, or Do-217
(I also would propose taking away the German CV and adding the Fritz-X or Hs-293 to their weapon options, to be loaded on a German heavy bomber, which will even out the HA.)

Thank you for listening, and I hope that I have clarified a bit more for you.

[Kieran]

And what do I think the RAF should have? What they need, isn't another fighter now (especially considering how far ahead of everyone else they were when they introduced the Spit Mk. IX).

While I might agree with the thought they don't need another fighter (not sure, though) I can't agree with the reasoning. If you can't outturn the Spit you run or climb away with the current AH set. It is a good fighter, but not really the best in any category by any means. To make this worse, aren't you the one lobbying for the removal of perk points on the Ta-152? Are you saying the Germans need yet another ultra-fighter free for use, yet you are going to deny the RAF a Hurricane?

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Ding_Hao:
(especially considering how far ahead of everyone else they were when they introduced the Spit Mk. IX).

               

When the 1942 Spitfire F.IX was introduced, at the start of AH, the P-51D, Bf109G-10 and N1K2-J were also introduced.

How does the Spitfire F.IX qualify as so far ahead of those fighters, especially when the FM in 1.00 to 1.03 had an error that penalized turning unrealisticly?

A good pilot in any of the aircraft I mentioned, save the N1K2-J, will hand a Spitfire F.IX its bellybutton 9 times out of 10.

[Urchin]

No Kieran, that would be ME that is really pressing for the perk cost to be looked at on the Ta-152.  As far as "ultra-fighter"- I guess you've never flown it.  Also, I have no problem with the Hurricane being in AH, either the guns will carry it or it will be a flop.  I sorta think it will be a flop even WITH the guns, but I'll fly it if nobody else does- sort of like what I do with the Ta-152.

Also, Karnak- I disagree with the statement that a good pilot in a 109G10 or a P51D is going to have a Spitfire for lunch.  I persume you mean that it the pilots are of equal skill, in which case I firmly believe it would end up as a draw.  The Spitfire wouldn't be able to KILL the G10 or the 51, but they would not be able to get a clean shot at him either.  At best it would be a stalemate, at worst it would end up as a series of headon passes.  The spit would have an edge on the 109 in that case, but the P51 would have an edge on the Spit (especially since Spits seem to fall apart under .50 fire, or so I hear).

[Toad]

Well, Ding, then we disagree.

At the beginning of the Air War over the North, USAF and USN really hadn't really been teaching gunfighting for a long time. The Phantoms didn't even HAVE a gun. It was all going to be missile combat.

I think you can presume that the -17 and -19 drivers were practicing gunfighting, albeit in the Soviet method.

So you've got guys trained primarily in missile combat, most CAP planes without guns at all fighting guys in agile gun-equipped fighters with pilots presumably trained in their own tactics.

Even under THOSE conditions the US forces maintained a 3/1 K/D.

When the US forces realized the problem and institued gunfighting training, the K/D went up (dramatically in the case of the USN).

I still don't think your hypothesis holds up.

[juzz]

Been doing a little research...

I can't find anything that says the Mk IIC had rockets(seems the Mk IV was the first), so I guess it's down to bombs(2x250lb or 500lb) and 44 gallon drop tanks for ordinance options.

Top speeds, clean

260mph at s/l
279mph at 5k
290mph at 10k
302mph at 15k
329mph at 17.8k
328mph at 20k
321mph at 25k
300mph at 30k

Climbrate at altitude

2780fpm at s/l
2430fpm at 5k
2080fpm at 10k
1670fpm at 15k
1490fpm at 20k
1170fpm at 25k
680fpm at 30k

2x250lb bombs cuts speed by about 50mph, and climbrate by about 500fpm.

Empty weight: 5658lbs
Loaded weight: 7544lbs
Wing Area: 258ft^2
Engine: Merlin XX; 1260HP at 10,750ft, 1160HP at 20,750ft.

Armament: 4x20mm cannon, Oerlikon or Hispano(AH Hurricane model appears to have Hispanos) with 91 r.p.g.

[Kieran]

Only problem, Urchin, is that Ding started the thread, ergo he must support eliminating the perk price. Granted you have advocated it more forcefully, but his name is on the header (unless my fe is screwing up the BBS here).

I have flown the Ta152. I got kills in it. Seemed easy enough. When I wanted to scram I did. When I wanted to fight I did. You may not realize it, but that is the deciding power in these planes- to be able to choose the terms of the fight.

A Spit pilot can no more determine the terms of a fight against a 51 or G10 than a Zero can against an F4U. In either case the fast plane wins with pilots of equal ability. The fast plane gets to choose when the fight starts and ends. You can keep corraling the Spit until he runs out of fuel (small gas tank) or ammo (small clip). He cannot run. He cannot climb. He has to react to everything the other guy does to stay alive. He has to guess what the other guy is trying to set up. He has to hope for a lucky break or a snapshot. All things equal at the merge, the Spit is already losing.

[Steven]

<<<I meant that the Vietnamese were very effective against the Americans for the training that they recieved. I believe that, had it not been for the superior turning ability and gun superiority, then the Vietnamese would probably been caught in a turkey shoot. This proves that, despite all the facts, a plane w/ superior turning ability and gun armament will be more effective than any fast, poorly-gun armed plane. The difference in training between the Americans and the Vietnamese probably was the reason why the Americans had a higher k/d ratio over the NVAF. If, however, the Vietnamese had recieved training equal to the US, then they would have easily had a higher k/d ratio than the Americans.>>>

Sorry people, I cannot leave this alone considering it's a topic dear to my heart.  I think comparing the Air Battles over Vietnam to the Hurricane IIc in the MA is completely ludicrous.

I don't have exact numbers available but I'm guessing the NVAF only scored about 80-90 air-air kills during the periods of about mid-1965 through March-1968 and about May-1972 to Jan-1973.  Roughly, let's call that 40 months or 1,200 days.  Roughly and on average, one kill every 13 days is not that impressive and not indicative of great air-battles going on.  Do you know how many USA aircraft were entering NVN in those 13 days it took on average for the NVAF to get a kill?  It was quite a target rich environment for the MiGs.  Do you know what ratio of USA aircraft over NVN were fighters?  Though this varied, for a Rolling Thunder Alpha let's just assume about eight escort fighters which probably had them underdogs at times.  You define the NVAF kill numbers as effective?  In general, the NVAF only attacked when the situation was to their advantage otherwise they would run to their sanctuaries to prevent their aircraft from being destroyed.  And really, for much of Rolling Thunder the USA was at a disadvantage over NVN in terms of radar coverage.  Since the NVAF would attempt to engage only when at an advantage or vs. straggling and damaged aircraft, the USA's favorable victory ratio is actually quite impressive.  There is just way too much involved in this subject to go into here but don't make such simple judgements and comparisons.  

I respect the NVAF and USA pilots for all they had to face.  Just give up this silly comparison between the Hurricane IIc in the MA and the MiG-17 vs USA aircraft in the Vietnam War.  It's apples and oranges.  Your leaps to conclusions are incredulous and I find insulting to my personal respect for those pilots who engaged in that war.  

<<<This proves that, despite all the facts...>>>
Heh heh.  I won't even comment.

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Kieran:
Only problem, Urchin, is that Ding started the thread, ergo he must support eliminating the perk price. Granted you have advocated it more forcefully, but his name is on the header (unless my fe is screwing up the BBS here).

Oh, undoubtedly he supports it.  My apoligies, I thought you were trying to badmouth him but got him confused with me.


I have flown the Ta152. I got kills in it. Seemed easy enough. When I wanted to scram I did. When I wanted to fight I did. You may not realize it, but that is the deciding power in these planes- to be able to choose the terms of the fight.

This really is a reply to this and to what follows below.  However, I'll limit my reply to the Ta-152 for right now.  The ONLY place the Ta-152 can "dictate" a fight is at 30k+.  I've seen maybe 10 planes at that altitude in 4 months.  Below 30k, it is a DECENT airplane, but definately not outstanding.  Below 10k, where 99.5% of the fights take place at in the MA, it is definately a poor choice.  The 109G10 and the 190D9 are both much better airplanes below 10k.  Furthermore, those two planes are probably number 7 and 8 or so in my "top 10" picks for effective planes at the MA altitude (below 10k).  Below 10k, a Ta-152 pilot cannot "dictate" terms to any of the following planes : LA7,Yak9U, P51D,P51B,109G10,190D9.  Undoubtedly there are more planes than that which can "dictate" terms to the Ta-152 (which by your definition is merely by being faster).  I'll leave it at that for now, as this is a Hurricane thread and not the Ta-152 thread.

A Spit pilot can no more determine the terms of a fight against a 51 or G10 than a Zero can against an F4U. In either case the fast plane wins with pilots of equal ability. The fast plane gets to choose when the fight starts and ends. You can keep corraling the Spit until he runs out of fuel (small gas tank) or ammo (small clip). He cannot run. He cannot climb. He has to react to everything the other guy does to stay alive. He has to guess what the other guy is trying to set up. He has to hope for a lucky break or a snapshot. All things equal at the merge, the Spit is already losing.

I respectfully disagree with you here.  By being careful with your energy, a Spit CAN climb even with a BnZ fighter making passes every so often.  Plus, it only takes one mistake by the BnZ pilot (or a good move by the Spit pilot) and the Spit will be able to get a kill (assuming he is in a position to make the shot, and actually DOES make the shot).  I'd be happy to "test" this theory in the DA or TA if you care to.  I've no problem with being the Spit and letting you "bounce" me as it were.

Edit was because I was having trouble getting the qoutes in bold and my response in normal.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[Kieran]

A. The Ta152 is designed as a high-altitude fighter. By staying where it is designed to fly you can indeed dictate the fight on your terms every single time (unless of course you meet another Ta152).

B. Of course the Spit can climb with a Mustang. What it can't do is zoom with it or simply follow it if the Mustang decides to leave. In the case of the G10, the Spit can't climb or follow.

See, the point in both cases is you have the choice to engage or not. Sure you can put yourself in a situation where you can't escape and must fight your way out, but you don't have to. The Spit pilot pretty much has to duke it out with anyone that choses to fight it. It is well equipped for the fight (to a point), but is ill equipped to pursue.

That is where your arguement for unperking the Ta152 falls apart. You claim it is too easy to kill, therefore it should be unperked. I say it is easy to live in, and assuming you leave it where it was designed to fly, is pretty much untouchable unless you choose to be touched. Your more effective argument is to reduce the perk simply because people aren't using it- forget the "it isn't that good of a plane" tac, 'cause it is.

[hazed-]

havent read all the posts but most.heres my take...

Welcome hurricane!!!

cannons? well the nik has the same sort of set up and so did the chog.I can imagine the hurricane will go for the HO more, as do the other 2, but with its extreme lack of speed is it really going to be a problem? I dont think it will and im sure now that if it does HTC will do something about it.Dont worry just enjoy what is a lovely looking aircraft.Wtg superfly etc.


Welcome Me262!!!!

I wont use it much in MA but i just had to be able to fly this aircraft in AH's fantastic FM.AH is the only flight sim ive ever used for longer than a few weeks or months.It was my first ever online sim and the first game ive ever payed to play online.
says a lot doesnt it  .Im really looking forward to hi speed slashing attacks on those strato buffs mwahahhaa.

WTG again HTC in listening to what customers want.

[Wlfgng]

thanks for both AC HTC !!!

jets to take care of those strato-buffs
(can you imagine a jet sweep against buffs)

and the hurri will add greatly to historical setups..

WTFG!!!

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Kieran:
A. The Ta152 is designed as a high-altitude fighter. By staying where it is designed to fly you can indeed dictate the fight on your terms every single time (unless of course you meet another Ta152).

B. Of course the Spit can climb with a Mustang. What it can't do is zoom with it or simply follow it if the Mustang decides to leave. In the case of the G10, the Spit can't climb or follow.

See, the point in both cases is you have the choice to engage or not. Sure you can put yourself in a situation where you can't escape and must fight your way out, but you don't have to. The Spit pilot pretty much has to duke it out with anyone that choses to fight it. It is well equipped for the fight (to a point), but is ill equipped to pursue.

That is where your arguement for unperking the Ta152 falls apart. You claim it is too easy to kill, therefore it should be unperked. I say it is easy to live in, and assuming you leave it where it was designed to fly, is pretty much untouchable unless you choose to be touched. Your more effective argument is to reduce the perk simply because people aren't using it- forget the "it isn't that good of a plane" tac, 'cause it is.

You are absolutely correct.  If you fly the Ta-152 as it was meant to be flown, you head up to 40k to circle and wait for the enemy formation of bombers so that you can be vectored into them.  Oh wait.  In Aces High even the BUFFS don't fly above 30k, and the fighters don't normally make it above 10k.  So in Aces High, flying the plane as it was meant to be flown isnt really an option, as I see it.  So, that renders the Ta-152 in Aces High pretty much useless.  HTC should just remove the guns and call it a reconaissence plane, maybe some people would be fooled into using perks on it then.
   

Ok, now you have changed your argument on me.  You argued before that the Spitfire would lose in a fight to a well flown P51D or a wellflown 109G10.  I guess you believe that is no longer the case, because now you are saying that the Spitfire can't catch up to the Mustang or 109 after it gets on their tail.  Well, golly, thats just to damn bad.  You didn't get shot down, that is a victory in itself when you get bounced.  A DRAW is totally different than a DEFEAT.

[Cobra]

I'm confused....

Is this a thread about Puftwhiners whining about the Hurri or about Puftwhiners whining about the perk costs of the TA-152?

Urchin, please, for the love of all that's holy, quietly cry into your Herman Goerring (sp?) nighties.  You know, the ones that say "Ich ben ien Jelly Donut".

Cobra

[Kieran]

Ok, now you have changed your argument on me. You argued before that the Spitfire would lose in a fight to a well flown P51D or a wellflown 109G10. I guess you believe that is no longer the case, because now you are saying that the Spitfire can't catch up to the Mustang or 109 after it gets on their tail. Well, golly, thats just to damn bad. You didn't get shot down, that is a victory in itself when you get bounced. A DRAW is totally different than a DEFEAT.

Wow. What I have said is that a Mustang or a G10 can dictate the fight. A well-flown G10 or Mustang owns the Spit. *Let me clarify this point for you* The Spit cannot catch the G10 or Mustang as they extend, ready to return when the advantage is theirs! It isn't a draw.

Focus on the whole picture, not just the little pieces.