Author Topic: Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive  (Read 875 times)

Offline Soda

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2002, 05:01:19 PM »
Suicide plunging is so popular because it's effective, more effective than any other method for many people and there is no real penalty to it.  Sure, your score might get beat up a bit, but score means zippo in most cases anyway.  It's undefendable, that's what is the key.  A Typhoon, P-47, P-51, etc diving with 2K of bombs, or more in the case of the P-47, at 575mph is beyond what any plane can honestly defend against.  In order to catch them you have to exceed the performance of your plane and are just as likely to crash or peel the wings off yourself.  The attacker doesn't care though, his whole purpose is to kill target X and he never plans on trying to survive.  Aiming is a non-issue, you just ride it right into the target and release within the last 1K.. the horizontal travel at 550mph is easily enough to arm the bomb if you have even a steep angle to your dive.  Add to that the fact that not having to return to base doubles your sortie rate... no more wasting time flying back or blowing an additional 30 seconds reloading.

Can't say I like it, but the game promotes it in a number of ways.  Against hangers or a town, well, that's 15 minutes of penalty. Against a CV group that spent half an evening trying to navigate to a target, well, that's hours worth of time wasted to someone how needs to make only 2-3 suicide runs in P-47 with bombs, rockets, and guns firing.

-Soda
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Offline Wlfgng

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2002, 05:11:07 PM »
I agree.  I've been gone most of the spring/summer and now that I'm back I can't believe the ammount of sucide chumps (thanks Zappa).

IMO letting this go 'unpunished' is as much gaming the game as putting in some kind of 'penalty' for such acts.
If you say this is 'UNREALISTIC' I say that this 'suicide chump' stuff is as unrealistic as it gets.
Sure there were sucide pilots but once they plowed the farm, they never returned.  In AH they just re-up before the thing they ran into is even rebuilt.

Too bad there isn't a way to make these chumps unable to fly for an extended period of time.... closer to RL if you ask me.

Offline Soda

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2002, 05:14:08 PM »
Turbot:
Quote
Guys that know what they are doing can dive bomb a CV and live. They can release bombs from higher alt than your typical CV suicide jockey.


Exactly!  The CV, or CA, are huge targets, very easy to hit in a dive bomb from medium altitudes.  Once you get an idea of how to aim at a moving target you can nail them every time from above ack range (or by barely dipping into it).  It's not like trying to pick off a GV or fuel bunker which requires you to get fairly close.

The incentive is to suicide bomb though.  You can carry rockets and use cannons if you plan to suicide, thus put more ordinance on target.  Also, you don't have to worry about time wasted returning to base and reloading, if you suicide you get double the sortie rate.  Two quick P-47 attacks with full load and 25% fuel gives a light load of fuel so climb is better... if you survive long enough to put your rockets on target and some guns you are likely inflicting 3K+ in damage in a single dive.

Hard to identify whether someone is trying to suicide or not vs. someone who is just not very good and is trying everything they can to land a bomb.

-Soda
The Assassins.

Offline DarkHawk

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2002, 05:23:03 PM »
There is a possible answer to the suicide plunge.
If you hit an enemy building or other objects such as GV's, or TG, no damage and you die plus loose perk points. Make it a stiff fine. Like 25 or 50 perks. In this way they can not game the game it has no benifit except remove them from the battle. The exception would be if the plane has major damage and is out of control they strike one of the above items, then damage would be normal.

Question: Is there any documentation for each suicide run in WW2which hit its target caused a ship to sink, such as a carrier, cuiser or Battleship? Or was this manily just damage to that ship.

I enjoy killing the suicide jock with the CV 5 inch guns. One night 25 kills in a gun turrent.
The CV was still up also.

Widewing
 I agree that not all people who command the TG know what they are doing. I have seen to many time where one take command and holds it then head into the nears fighter battle and the TG gets destroyed.

DarkHawk
49DHawk
XO for BOWL (DHawk)

Offline Fatty

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2002, 05:30:55 PM »
Those meanieheads are still dying?

They should cancel your account if you auger, this has to be stopped!

Offline Wlfgng

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2002, 05:32:20 PM »
umm... so what do you do if the guy has less than 30 or 50 perkies.. or none?

Offline Revvin

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2002, 05:38:12 PM »
I don't see all these suicide bombers you speak of and returning a plane damaged or not and then returning to the target is more realistic than some hokey time limit equation to pander to the furballers. The current downtime for airfield target's is a joke as is the ammount of ordnance needed to kill it..3000lb's for a hangar? get real c'mon. It's a concession to gameplay...to the furballers, trying to add some hokey time equation tied to the time the player who finishes the target lives is just ludicrous.

Offline Thrawn

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2002, 06:38:15 PM »
There is nothing quite like diving into a carrier in a hvy P38 from 10K.  The plane starts shaking like crazy, the ack is flying everywhere.  And the sweet sweet sound of falling bombs and rockets that last three nanoseconds, just before your explode into a glorious fireball, all over the deck.

And as bonus you get to see: "System Message: Ship Destroyed"

Offline AKDejaVu

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2002, 07:06:46 PM »
Ahh... OK revvin.

Let's lessen the impact of ack some more.  I mean... enemy planes should be able to loiter around a base knowing the ack won't touch them as long as they keep turning.

While we're at it...  let's make it so ack doesn't do well against a high speed aircraft.  God forbid ack should hit someone that is flying right down the middle of the runway at 100 feet as long as they're at high speed.

Yep... all that goes on here is pandering to "furballers".  I'm rather amazed at how fast that label came out seeing as how I haven't spent 1 second this tour doing it.  Yeppers... furballers always want to promote slightly more realistic tactics... its what we live for.  :rolleyes:

There is ZERO about base attack that is realistic.  Absolutely ZERO.  Its absolutely the most gamey aspect of the game and this portion of the strat promotes the most gamey type of behavior.  Vulching, spawning, suiciding and what have you.  I find it quite hilarious that you think a change to add a tad more incentive to bomb more realistically would be making the most gamey aspect of the game worse.  Its not a furballer vs strat debate.

Talk about ludicrous.  Oh yeah... but then you wanted to make it even easier for low flying planes to come in and level a base.

AKDejaVu

Offline RafBader

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2002, 07:15:12 PM »
Ahem!tttttttttthhhhhhhhhhhpppppppp ppp!
Lost interest after 4th reply.

 RafBader

Offline Shiva

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2002, 07:21:20 PM »
Quote
Question: Is there any documentation for each suicide run in WW2which hit its target caused a ship to sink, such as a carrier, cuiser or Battleship? Or was this manily just damage to that ship.


23-26 Oct, 1944.  Off Leyte, 55 Kamikaze pilots, in the first planned mass suicide attack of the war, coordinated with the IJN attack on Leyte Gulf, hit the escort carriers and sank the St. Lo (CVE-63) and damaged the large escorts Sangamon (CVE-26), Suwannee (CVE-27), Santee (CVE-29), and small escorts White Plains, Kalinin Bay, and Kitkun Bay.   In all, 7 carriers were hit and 40 other types damaged; five ships were sunk, 23 heavily damaged, and 12 moderate damage.

9 Jan, 1945. The cruiser HMAS Australia was struck by a kamikaze carrying a 15" or 16" British artillery shell, and was forced to retire with her fore funnel smashed, a large hole in her port side, steering reduced, several boilers shut down and bulkheads flexing alarmingly. She took no further part in the war.

25 Mar, 1945 - 21 Jun, 1945. Off Okinawa -- Ten "Kikusui", swarms of Kamikaze, up to 350 attackers at a time, 1,900 in total, damaged 250 ships with 34 destroyers and smaller ships sunk.  Several ships were damaged so badly they were not repaired. One in seven of all naval causalities occurred off Okinawa.

Specific attacks:

6 Jun, 1943. After the last of the Japanese carriers had been set afire by American dive bombers, some of the pilots were ordered to chase Japanese heavy cruisers trying to escape. After being badly shot up and his plane set afire, Captain Richard E. Fleming crashed his plane into the after gun turret of the cruiser Mikuma, causing severe damage from the flaming gasoline that leaked down into the engine spaces. Captain Soji, commander of the nearby cruiser Mogami, later said about this that "I saw a dive-bomber dive into the last turret and start fires. He was very brave." Richard Fleming was posthumously awarded a Congressional Medal of Honor as a result -- for being a sort of American kamikaze pilot.

7 Dec, 1944.  In Ormoc Bay at Leyte, the USS Ward (DD-139) is struck amidships by a two-engine Japanese bomber, hitting the troop compartment, although the resulting blast took out power and communications throughout the ship. The Japanese bomber was moving so fast that it came out the opposite side of the ship. USS Ward is sunk by the USS O'Brien about an hour and a half later.

12 Apr, 1945. Off Okinawa, destroyer Mannert L. Abele (DD-733) is sunk by Okha -- she is the first U.S. Navy ship to be sunk by that type of weapon.  Destroyer Stanly (DD-478) is damaged by Baka.  High speed minesweeper Jeffers (DMS-27) is damaged by Okha and kamikaze.

4 May, 1945. Light minelayer Shea (DM-30) is damaged by an Okha.  Minesweeper Gayety (AM-239) is damaged by near-misses of kamikaze and Okha.

24July, 1945. Destroyer escort Underhill (DE-682), destroyed while intercepting 4 Kaitens from Japanese submarine I-53 off Luzon.

On a casualties-per-person basis, the kamikaze program was very effective. On a ships-damaged-per-kamikaze basis, the kamikaze program was moderately effective; at the time it was implemented, Japan was losing the war of production badly enough that all it was doing was slowing down the rate at which the US was winning. As a means of turning the war around and destroying the American forces or their will to fight, it was an abject failure.

Some discussions of the kamikaze pilots:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2002, 07:24:28 PM by Shiva »

Offline Soviet

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2002, 12:03:10 AM »
Why is it such a no-no to do a suicide attack? Sure you get to fly after you die but it happend in WW2 (japanese).

Jesus people, it's just a game, stfu and fly.

Offline janjan

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2002, 12:36:35 AM »
Huh, what is this talk about unrealistic bombing of ships. As far as I know at least the divebombers released their bombs as late as possible and the casualty rates were often horrible.

How often jabos attacked CV's...well never heard of such but surely must have happened. Maybe there should be certain AP-bombs only available for real bombers and not for jabos and GP bombs would do much less damage to ships - as they should.

Offline Widewing

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2002, 08:03:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by janjan
Huh, what is this talk about unrealistic bombing of ships. As far as I know at least the divebombers released their bombs as late as possible and the casualty rates were often horrible.

How often jabos attacked CV's...well never heard of such but surely must have happened. Maybe there should be certain AP-bombs only available for real bombers and not for jabos and GP bombs would do much less damage to ships - as they should.


Typically, dive bombers attacking heavily defended (by tripleA) ships released their bombs beween 5,000 and 8,000 feet. Survival was a great motivator. Usually, release altitude was specified in the mission briefing.

We have entirely too many unskilled dorks who can't kill anything without getting killed themselves. If everyone decided to engage in suicide tactics, the game would degenerate into an arcade.

I say, any bomb dropped within 3k of any ship or structure should not arm. Problem solved. Rockets should be uneffected.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Fatty

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Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2002, 09:31:09 AM »
Not too many arcade games require a 15 minute climbout.  Can you remember any that do?  If not, which arcade game exactly would it be becoming?


Even if HT was to implement everything suggested in this, the silliest thread I've read in a good while, you're never going to get the rest of us to take death as seriously as you do in this thread.  We're just not that sad.