Paul Van Riper's War

[Toad]

Yep, that's it Swager.

Talked to any of your Guard or Reserve buddies in the last two weeks?

[Udie]

I bet this buildup has been going on for at least 6 months if not longer.  Let's just pray that strategery is one of Bush 43's strong points.  And that Sadam hasn't made his bomb yet.  I hope they don't keep our guys all grouped up in one big nukable army or navy.

 What's Russia going to do? They sure have been quiet over the past 6 months or so.  China?  Isreal?  I hope and pray this thing stays conventional....

[wulfie]

Yeah this whole thing was dicussed to death in another thread.

(the previous thread was titled 'Fancy US ARMY beaten')

In yet another thread where some dumb bellybutton zero military experience anti-Bush reporters turned an everyday common occurance that is absolutely no cause for alarm into yet another 'conspiracy theory' seed. Read the other thread I'm not up for cutting and pasting the obvious.

Udie - don't sweat it. You watch too much U.S. 'media'. No one wants Sadaam to stay there and the Chinese and the Russians aren't going to be pissed. The Russians aren't going to care if there's a war - if there is it's just more oil infrastructure repair work for them to bill to the 'new' Iraqi government.

For anyone who cares - remember what the  generally anti-Bush (and thus for some stupid reason anti-anything that Bush does even if it's good for America, because it's all about not letting the Republicans 'get away with anything', right?) U.S. 'media' was saying before the action in Afghanistan - thousands of casualties, the Taliban can't be driven out, never been done before, etc.

Mark my words - if it comes to blows in Iraq the bad guys are going to go down harder and faster than anyone thought possible. Take any loss estimated you hear from the U.S. media and 'divide by 100'.

Something to remember - there is no % in the government and the military telling the 'media' that the 'media' is incorrect in their assessment of any situation. When the shootings over and the media turned out to be wrong (again), well - then the truth is out and the fight is over so the bad guys can't learn anything that could help them.

It's at this point that you will begin to see stories about 'atrocities', which usually are corrected/debunked within 10 days or so - but the 'media' isn't held accountable for reporting innuendo.

My current rallying cry against irresponsible and biased media:

"Remember the Jenin Massacre (that never happened)".

Mike/wulfie

[senna]

Wulfie I have to sorta disagree in the casualties dept. I think as soon as the bombs start dropping and the civilian casualties rise, the men in the chicken toejame Iraqi army are gona get VERY pissed and will fight. Also after the initial encounter and things settle, thats when the underground types will have time to think and harras the occupying forces (however long they ill be there). Somalia I would say is a good reference for example in terms of "simple peace keeping mission" that got worse. I think the US will take casualties, not where it expects it though, not at the spearhead but maybe rather along the tail for the politicians.

[Kieran]

There's a big difference between Iraq and Somalia- we weren't at war with Somalia.

[whgates3]

no lucrative construction contacts will go to russians unless it is cover for the same people who got the contract$ last time:  well connected friends of bush (enron & halliburton) and bin laden construction.  
in fact the bin ladens and the bush family have been in business together since the 1970s (they financed juniors many 'failed' oil businesses when senior was top dog@cia) longer before osama was any sort of 'terrorist'

[wulfie]

"no lucrative construction contacts will go to russians unless it is cover for the same people who got the contract$ last time: well connected friends of bush (enron & halliburton) and bin laden construction."

Gee, that's funny - the Russians just signed a huge development contract with the Government of Iraq...against the wishes of most of the Western world (note: I don't have a problem with the Russians doing this). I didn't see Enron or Halliburton mentioned at all...

"in fact the bin ladens and the bush family have been in business together since the 1970s (they financed juniors many 'failed' oil businesses when senior was top dog@cia) longer before osama was any sort of 'terrorist'"

Ah, roadkill. Conspiracy theory driven nutball roadkill. You've been watching the X-Files too much while dropping acid. Get some mental help fast, or give me some proof and documentation from reliable sources (hint: ain't going to happen).

Everyone loves the 'Bush Sr./CIA/Bin-Laden' 'connection'. It's no big secret - Bin-Laden was a leader of a group of tribal fighters. 1 of about 400 who received aid from the CIA and numerous other Western/N.A.T.O. intelligence agencies when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Turning that connection into some dark conspiracy is like trying to dream up a 'Ford Motor Company Anti-Semite Conspiracy' because Ford did business with people who 15 years later were the senior leadership of Nazi Germany. Where does this stupid idea come from that no one ever becomes an enemy or becomes evil even if they were 'good' before?

"Wulfie I have to sorta disagree in the casualties dept. I think as soon as the bombs start dropping and the civilian casualties rise, the men in the chicken toejame Iraqi army are gona get VERY pissed and will fight. Also after the initial encounter and things settle, thats when the underground types will have time to think and harras the occupying forces (however long they ill be there). Somalia I would say is a good reference for example in terms of "simple peace keeping mission" that got worse. I think the US will take casualties, not where it expects it though, not at the spearhead but maybe rather along the tail for the politicians."

The Iraqi army almost to a man hates Hussein. They did when I talked to various Iraqi POWs 10 years ago, and everyone else I've talked to had roughly the same experiences opinion wise.

Also, no body of people is *that* stupid. The reason the people of Iraq hate Hussein is because they *know* that the reason that 50 children a day are starving to death in Iraq is because Hussein is taking the money from oil sales allowed to generate $$$ for the purchase of food and medicine and is taking that $$$ and buying military equipmen and 'lining his pockets'.

In general, the people of Iraq live in fear of Hussein. Once there is a chance to overthrow him without assuredly being crushed by his secret police and the 15% of the army made up of ultra-loyalist units...I think everyone will be surprised at what happens.

Also, any occupying force in Iraq would almost certainly not be U.S. Probably several far more 'acceptable' Nations' forces (by Middle Eastern political standards) backed up and organized by Turkish forces, etc. Look at Afghanistan - the main body of the ISAF isn't U.S. The U.S. knew very well that the presence of a U.S. security force would only give splintered terrorist elements 'recruiting material'.

People need to get over this blanket opinion that everyone in the U.S. government is fatally stupid and/or driven by evil secret motives. It makes for good movies and 'media' innuendo in an effort to 'sell copy', but it simply isn't true.

Go study this stuff from reliable unbiased sources (i.e., the reams of data from the 80s now available via the FOIA) if you actually care about the truth and the reality of the real world - as opposed to 'repeating the party/conspiracy/sensationalist line'.

Mike/wulfie

[wulfie]

Senna,

re: Somalia.

Alot of factors led to the trouble in Somalia that can easily be avoided in most other situations. Also, 'peacekeepers' in a post-war Iraq almost certainly aren't going to be U.S. military units (see above).

Mike/wulfie

[whgates3]

i stick by my beliefs based on the theory that powerful people dont let things happen accidentally and whatever the most disgusting rumor about them is, its probably true:

hitler: ametamine addict, killed millions, unknown number of testicles

stalin: killed more than hitler, whacked every early communist leader

mao: deflowered thousands of 11 year old chinese girls

jfk: friend of mafiosi, banged marylin monroe then had her knocked off

clinton: rapist, bribeable, dope smoker, whacked vince foster

bushes: you already heard my views on them, but also undermined & controlled reagan presidency (after losing to him in the primaries), engineered oil price spike during carter administration, learned all their tricks from nixon who in turn learned all the tricks from eisenhower who was above using that sort of thing domesticly or in an undeclared war

taft: was fat

[wulfie]

Well, I will say one thing in total honesty:

My overall opinion of you goes way up by knowing that you don't trust *anyone*, as opposed to the current masses who don't trust Bush because 'Ted Rall thinks he's evil and everyone on my block voted for Gore because Oprah likes him'.

Better a paranoid wolf than a blind sheep I guess.

Mike/wulfie

[easymo]

The Chinese have been rearming the Iraqis.  Specifically, more up to date anti aircraft weapons. Most of the Al-Quida cadre are still out there, and are reported to be reorganizing.  They are likely to plan any new terrorist attack to coincide with an attack, by us, on Iraq.  Hoping to kick off the long desired "holy war"

  Instead of stomping on this rattlesnake.   Jr. just keeps poking it with a stick.  IMO this is going to cost more American lives the most here expect. And no, I don't think or solders are somehow more expendable then the rest of us.  So I am not as cavalier as some of you are about it.

[Thrawn]

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by 10Bears


What happened next will be familiar to anyone who ever played soldiers in the playground. Faced with an abrupt and embarrassing end to the most expensive and sophisticated military exercise in US history, the Pentagon top brass simply pretended the whole thing had not happened. They ordered their dead troops back to life and "refloated" the sunken fleet. Then they instructed the enemy forces to look the other way as their marines performed amphibious landings. Eventually, Van Riper got so fed up with all this cheating that he refused to play any more. Instead, he sat on the sidelines making abrasive remarks until the three-week war game - grandiosely entitled Millennium Challenge - staggered to a star-spangled conclusion on August 15, with a US "victory".

LOL I think Robert Duvall should play Van Riper in the movie

The purpose of playing war games is to learn from your mistakes and improve your strategy and tactics without killing anyone.

When you plan to play chess for an evening, then get blown away in six moves, don't you set it up and try again?

[Kieran]

But Holden, that's too obvious and makes too much sense. It can't be that, it must be Enron and Cheney and the CIA and black choppers and stuff again.

[10Bears]

Holden, every game of chess I've ever played, the opponent must say these two words before there's any re setting up the board short of checkmate

"I concede"

Give the man his win!