P47, P51, P38...the German view......

[BUG_EAF322]

Nice work captain
 
just forget it
these luftwabbles just want their cherry pickin planes get kills with one 30 mm shot

otherwise it sucks


many of these to give away again

[Tac]

What range are you getting shot from?


What range was the common WW2 dogfight fought at?

Get within d200 of a 38 and any shot will tear it to pieces.


I do agree the P-47 should be 1/3rd more tougher than the F6F to shoot down, right now you just aim at the wings and they snap out.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Oldman731
This is one of the reasons I've never been a big Galland fan.  He was at the helm in this period, and he never did get their organization to the point at which he could respond to a raid with an organized, concentrated defense.
- oldman

he was too busy squeakin' to kurt tank that the proposed ta152 was going to be 2.3614 kmh too slow.

[Puke]

This is one of the reasons I've never been a big Galland fan. He was at the helm in this period, and he never did get their organization to the point at which he could respond to a raid with an organized, concentrated defense.

I thought Galland argued with Hitler on this very point but Hitler didn't want to concentrate (pull back) forces.  But I'm no WW2 history expert.

[-ammo-]

P-47 was the best:)  My excuse for being the 100th post in this longggg overdone... discussion:)

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by Glasses

If by "Nazis" you mean Luftwaffe pilots of  Heer(German Army)they did not (99.9%) shoot at pilots or any persons that surrendered it was not a policy  to do that

The NAZIS deliberately murdered thousands of POWs, many in very awful ways.   Malmedy, Mauthausen.

If a WW2 German pilot got shot in his chute or his family got incinerated in a bunker that is just too bad.  NAZI Germany had to be defeated.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Oedipus

 Quite a large number of USAAF pilots (and thier command chain) believed that if the USAAF attack pilots shot at the ground under an enemy panzer they could knock it out.  So......
 Based on the opinions of hundreds, if not thousands, of USAAF ground attack pilots and thier leaders who registered the amount of dead enemy vehicles on the roads naturally concluded that what they were doing worked. Therefore  I insist that HTC review the damage model on the AH's GV's and then summarily change it so that my richocets can kill and my ground attack sorties are more like what I've read in those combat stories and anecdotes.

yes i see your point oedipus but again what im saying is basically this.
From what ive read i would place the aircraft we are talking about in a certain order of suitability for roles due to what i have gathered from what i have read(not all pilot accounts btw)

my view on the toughest planes (at least ones we've mentioned) in order:

P47
F4u
F6F/190F's
f4fs
p38
typhoon
hurricane
p51/109s/spits/190A'a etc all pretty similar

I know this isnt very provable but isnt this a reasonable idea on the planes durability?the p47 described by all sides as a tank with wings:)
F4u was tough as old boots and often proved it when it crashed on the carrier decks etc much like the F4f/F6f.The 190F's were specially armoured for ground attack and there are stories about how the cylinders were shot away and the engines still run.(i have a book with the description in it)
The p38 i put above the typhoon purely because of what you have shown , but before that, and i know the typhoon had flaws with the tail being prone to breaking, Id have put the tyhoon above it as it was a very tough plane to shoot down due to its huge thick wings and heavy armoured plate etc. I always had an idea the p38 was easily damaged on the tail also but i cant remember where i read about it and as pointed out here it WAS vulnerable due to its cooling systems layout etc.The hurricane was a wooden construction that absorbed mg fire like a seive but was not so good with HE shells.It literally got smashed up but the fuselage stayed together because of the enormous amount of spars/honeycomb like effect.
The rest of these aircraft like early 190s, spits etc have nothing much to speak of in terms of incredible strength, at least i havent read about it and as for the p51 well ive said it over and over it was not a good ground attack due to the placement of the radiator but i dont think it was any less or more durable than say a spit or a 190a5 for instance.

now is this a baised view? is this a misinformed view? I think not.
idiots like bug32 can post all the dumb pictures they like I dont think im being biased when i ask for a tougher 190f8 and p47 and a less durable p38 and p51 BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE IN AH its almost the other way around!.

now agree or not i feel its a fair request to ask for it to be looked into.go test it by simply flying through ack at 500 ft in all these planes ONLINE.and whats more do it a lot.I have almost 3 years in this game and i know what i think.

maybe someone could explain to me exactly why the p51 would be stronger? whats so special about it that i havent read about?

Im so fed up with this that im really losing my interest in many of the planes in AH because im feeling more and more that AH isnt set right and it gets more and more annoying.Much the same as when we were killed by the super E nik.Most of the time it may well have been good flying on the nik pilots part but we would always blame it on the special E ability it seemed to have.
Same as now when i shoot a p51 and see it survive I curse the model and i cant understand how anyone in here can claim its not more durable than most. I think they are full of crap and whats worse they accuse me of trying to get an advantage for the LW planes when they are flying a model with the durability advantage! and i think they damn well know it too.whats worse is they even try to infer im a nazi! great! really helps with the animosity that one.I just like to play the bad guy in games bug.If this was starwars id want to be in tie fighters.Does that mean im about to become darth vader?

All thats going to happen is AH will lose the people who add some variety by forming LW squads (or others) to fight your pony squads or raf squads.I used to fly LW exclusively but ive given in and started to fly the easier planes.that way I dont get as frustrated with the modeling but its a shame if you ask me.LW squads are a great  thing to have around just as italian squads and others.It adds to the game i think.

[Naudet]

Hazed. That was a picture taken during ground tests for damage cause by various armaments. Not a bird that flew back to base in that condition. Fact is there are many, MANY pictures of P-47's, B17's and P-38's that made it home with lesser or equal damage. This backs up pilots anecdtoes that thier birds werre tough. Yet I do not recall seeing many LW (or ANY Japanese planes) that could take the same punishment like those could and make it home.

Oedipus i have read a couple of squadron accounts and there are enough anecdotes about german planes returning with incredible damage.
And that there are not many pictures is pretty simple, not much were made or survived.
It is even hard to get enough pictures of operational planes together and such "specials" are even rarer.


But here two anecdotes about the FW190 (sorry haven't all exact names in mind, but they will give a general idea):

A LW pilot flying a FW190 collided with a Spitfire during a hard fough dogfight. The Spit immediatly crashed. The FW190 made a smooth 3 point landing with 4 feet of one wing missing, the pilot refused the order to belly land cause the inflight characteristics of the FW190 were barrely influenced by the missing wing parts.


Another LW pilot returned in low-level flight from the Operation Bodenplatte in his FW190D9. He constantly scaned for enemies and after checkin his 6 and looking forward again he noticed he was directly flying towards 3 giant trees.
He tried to pull up, but didnt managed it in time.
He cut the top 3-4 Meters from the trees but wondered that his plane still flew.
The ride was a bit rough, but nothing special.
When he landed safety the technical stuff looked estonished at the FW190.
The pilot got out take a look at his plane.
The collision with the tree had ripped of the outer 2 feet of each propeller blade, that was the cause for the rough ride.
The radiator was full of tree-parts, totaly blocking the cooling ripps and both wing leading edges had scars were thy cut the other two trees of.


Those two examples show what was possible, but the general idea with the LW-pilots were that those were just rare and special incidents. Thats the reason why they were mentioned.

And i think thats the same reason why such things were noticed on the allied side two.
I just wonder how often both participants in a midair collision were killed?
How often did a pilot come back with 200+ bullets holes (bullet holes btw indicate that no explosives were used, so barrely they came from cannon fire)?
How many P47 made it back in the condition of Johnsons P47?

[BUG_EAF322]

idiots like bug32

It's BUG322 dreckzwanzichesarslochschwein hund

flying schimmlippe

LOL

[GRUNHERZ]

I have read of FW190A from JG26 flying for a long time with the whole engine on fire due to a malfunction, the guy gust continued and laned as normal. He did not blow up.

I have read cases of FW190 having whole engine cylinders shot off and flying normal.

There was a case of Bf109 deliberatly ramming a P51, cutting the P51 in half and the 109 survining the colision.  

If I was one of the allied types I would now demand all this be taken as proof of the planes strength and demand my 109 and 190  be toughened up in AH.

And Virgil I find it hilarious how you attack LW fans for posting anectodal accounts while you do exactly the same in almost every one of your pots... And you use it in support of your wishes for AH airplane modeling.  Why are you such a hypocrite? But I'm sure you wouldnt understand that...

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I have read of FW190A from JG26 flying for a long time with the whole engine on fire due to a malfunction, the guy gust continued and laned as normal. He did not blow up.

I have read cases of FW190 having whole engine cylinders shot off and flying normal.

There was a case of Bf109 deliberatly ramming a P51, cutting the P51 in half and the 109 survining the colision.  

If I was one of the allied types I would now demand all this be taken as proof of the planes strength and demand my 109 and 190  be toughened up in AH.

And Virgil I find it hilarious how you attack LW fans for posting anectodal accounts while you do exactly the same in almost every one of your pots... And you use it in support of your wishes for AH airplane modeling.  Why are you such a hypocrite? But I'm sure you wouldnt understand that...

Grunherz, you need to learn to READ, and COMPREHEND! Go right now and find where I asked for or supported any change in modeling. You can't, because I didn't. I don't even fly right now, my video card is fried.

And your Luftwaffe buddy Wotan was the one who said I shouldn't use isolated incidents to prove toughness. In other words, it was the LUFTWAFFE FAN WHO MADE THE FIRST COMPLAINT, then he went on to do exactly what he accused me of, and I called him on it. Read it again, and again, and when you learn to read and understand, then come back and talk to me. Otherwise, shut your pie hole. You can't  or won't, read the posts before you run your mouth, and then you want to call me a hypocrite. I guess you want me to go back and show you EXACTLY how that worked out. I may just do that.

[Wotan]

you are still wrong you need to know how much damage the ones shot down took  not just consider the "miracles" that made it home.

You are wrong.

Look at the pic hazed posted, I can post a bunch more of various planes from hurricane to mossies to spitfire taking 3cm and making it home. But this is hardly representative of how tough the overall ac are. These were just the lucky ones.

Captain(?) you presented bs evidence that was supposed to show the 38 was tough. I replied to you and how wrong you were/are. I didnt bring  up toughness you did.

I said the p38 is a pos.

as for your  numbers as to a2a kills those on unverifiable estimates based on pilot claims and hardly credible.

The lw attacked bombers streams where they were weak. They were ordered for the most to get to the bombers. So even in a situation where 8 poor little p38 super aces find themselves in a situation where they were out numbered. They werent all attacked by the entire force of the lw.

Also as Glasses pointed out there have been allied claims of being out numbered but when you check to see how many fighters the lw had in the area its complete bs.

The lw later formed Gefechtsverband's that consisted of 3 staffels of Sturmbocks (36 or so 190s) and that inluded close escort gruppe of 109s, (a gruppen is 36 a/c and 4 stab = 40)

They also had a gruppen of 109s flying top cover 36 a/c and a stab) 40.

This represents strength on paper they rarely had all their aircraft operational.

The bombers we be strung out along the stream that ran 100 miles and when the lw attacked the bombers the "little friends" would be called to help. Any fighter in the area would converge.

Later the alles would sweep ahead and attack these formations as they formed up. They may have been "outnumbered" but they certainly werent "attacked" it was the other way around.

Heres an ah game example, in last saturdays cap event event my flight of 4 guys stumbled upon 20+ hurricanes forming up  after they took off. In 5 min time I had 5 kills. The other guys in my squad had multiple kills as well. Their may have been more hurris but we werent "outnumbered" we got a bunch of ez kills. Some of the hurris didnt even know they were attacked.

Look at the fighters that jg 26 and jg 2 had in operation and you be hard pressed to find 1 day where they had 100 aircraft in the air.

Pilot stories are just that stories of faded glory. Fish stories that rarely line up with the reality of it. How could 8 p38 pilots flying into a combat area take time to count. BS.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Puke
I thought Galland argued with Hitler on this very point but Hitler didn't want to concentrate (pull back) forces.  But I'm no WW2 history expert.

Not sure of your reference, but, in fact, most of the German fighter forces were based in, or near, Germany up until the June 6 invasion.  After that they were thrown into the Normandy meatgrinder.  By then, of course, the air war over Germany had been lost for quite awhile.

- oldman

[GRUNHERZ]

Wotan the famus spitfire and blenheim pics were from tests, neither plane could fly after the damage from one 30mm.

[Wotan]

5. Could he compare his experiences fighting against the airforces of both Germany and Japan? How were they similar / different?

A: Hard to answer! The German Air force in the early stages of the war had experienced pilots who were a menace. Later it became apparent to us that losses were forcing less experienced pilots into the fray, and of course our morale went up. The Germans by and large obeyed decent rules of warfare and so did we, with odd exception. The fighting was hard but in a strange way fair. The same applied to the Japanese I suppose, but there was no love lost there and no quarter given. The Japanese pilots were very aggressive and seemed to be experienced. Again in the face of severe losses they were capable of running away like the rest of us.

Faminz Interview with Alan Peart part 1

. What was the attitude towards enemy pilots in each theatre - hated Germans more than Japanese? Feared Japanese more than
Germans if captured? Which pilots seemed to have the better training?
A: We respected the German opposition. They were the enemy and our job was to kill them and they us, but I never felt hate. In the case of the Japanese we were fed lots of horror tales about their behaviour and were lectured by those who had had personal experience of their atrocities. We thoroughly disliked the Japs. and we adopted a no-holds-barred attitude to our combat. We would have shot them down in their parachutes but I never saw a Jap bail out.

Part 2

The NAZIS deliberately murdered thousands of POWs, many in very awful ways. Malmedy

You need to do some reading, The defendants at malmedy had their sentences commuted and when the army investigated the the crime scene after the snow had melted they didnt 150 machine gunned us soldiers who were lined up and shot in the back as the the survivors claimed. They found far fewer bodies that were strung out across the field indicating what the Germans claimed. That the soldiers were ran trying to escape into a wooded area across the field. Lt. Harold McGown the commander of those killed at malmedy supported the germans claim. He appeared at the trial of Joachim  Peiper and stated that Peiper had been responsible for actually saving a number of Americans. Ofcourse he was accused of fraternization and was even accused of aiding the Germans avoid an american ambush.

The Malmedy defendents had a competent lawyer, Lt. Colonel Willis M. Everrette, Jr. who made numerous appeals and even took this case to the US supreme court. Everrette kept fighting for these Germans that he took it to the press and numerous clergy men protested. Finally Secretary of the Army appointed a commission to investigate into the trials held at Dachau (where the malmedy trial were held). The commision submitted its report to the Secretary of the army in Oct. 1948. Its finding were varified by an independent  investigation by a review board appointed by General Lucious Clay (the american military Governor) and found that the defendant held for trial at Dachau were subject to all sorts of brutality. In 137 cases they found beatings to the point of knocking out teeth, and crushing testicles, the with holding of food, the impersonation of priests and defense attorneys to gain confessions and "mock trials" where I defend was "found guilty and sentenced to death but they would commute the sentence if they signed a confession. They even threatened the families of the defendents.

When Colonel A. H. Rosenfeild was confronted by the press with these with the rumors of mock trial he admitted as such saying

"Yes, ofcourse. We couldn't have made those birds talk otherwise.......It was a trick, and it worked like a charm"

Rosenfield after this resigned.

The American Lawyer George A. McDonough served both as a prosecuter and defense attorney in the war crimes program. He later served on the reviewing board and arbeitor of clemency claims wrote to the NY times complaining about the legal basis for these trials. Inregards to the Dachau trials (where the maolmedy defendents were tried)  He said

"Hearsay evidence was admitted indiscriminately and sworn statements of witnesses were admissiable regardless of whether anybody knew the person who made the statement or the individual who took the statement. If a prosecutor considered a statement of a witness more damagin than the witness' oral testimony in court he would advise the witness to go back to his home, submit the statement as evidence, and any objection by defence counsel would be promptly overruled"

Again he sat as arbeitor for clemency claims. No wonder so many death sentences were commuted.