IJN/IJA, the early war planeset and play balance

[Jospe2]

The problem with bomber speed in AH (and this is true of all bombers) is that they all run at full throttle.  In reality that wasn't possible and bombers had to use lower cruise settings.  This needs to be fixed in AH in order for the bomber / fighter relationship to resemble the WWII bomber / fighter relationship. [/B][/QUOTE]


I would love to see engine over-heat modeled in here.

Jospe

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

lol oboe, that was an honest typo..hehehe

I would very much like to see some better late war IJA fighters and bombers for better game play!!

[Squire]

The IJN needed the B5N because it was their primary torpedo a/c in the early war, especially Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Midway, and into 1943.

SBD , TBF, and F4F were in service at the SAME TIME as the A6M2 Zeke and the D3A Val and B5N Kate. Btw ALL those US types first flew BEFORE Pearl Harbor too.

Im sure late war IJ a/c are coming, I for one think they should be a top priority, but the IJ needed a proper torp ac (no more TBF subs) for their Carriers, and now they are getting one!

A6M2
A6M5
Ki-61 < best IJAAF fighter before Ki-84 >
Ki-67
D3A Val
B5N Kate
N1K2

Thats at least a good start? Wasnt long ago all you had was the A6M5 and the N1K2. Be happy.

Regards.

[keyapaha]

posted by jospe2,                                                                       The problem with bomber speed in AH (and this is true of all bombers) is that they all run at full throttle. In reality that wasn't possible .                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am probally one of very few people that dont run bombers at full throttle I usually run them at 75-80% I am not even sure if that is historical or not (if any one knows let me know so I can adjust accordingly)only in climb out to 7k and as soon as I release bombs am I at full throttle once away from field I cut back to 50% unless enemy a/c near by then keep at 80% and start a slight down angle about 750 fpm to keep speed till out of enemy territory and cruise home hopfully. Dosen't work all the time but I have a pretty good track record with this method.

[brady]

cajun, Ya the Brits were fighting in the Pac, in 41/42, one of the bigest defeats the British Army ever suffered was Singapore during this time, they Lost the Two Battleships to long range Betty's and Nell's, lost Burman the mayla penusilia, And commonwhealth forces faught in New Gunnie, the south pacific in general, including the famed Slot.


 One thing we must remember is that the CM's have a slightly different nead than we do, while the CT may nead a plane set that is more ballanced in nature to help us create week long plane match up's that are both historical and fun to play. The CM events are of shorter duration but they are Big draws, so withen that framework plane preformance issues like mid war US planes(models) VS peral harbor Japanese models is less of a factor. That is to say the preformance issues present would not be as noticed when fighting squaderon sized battles for 5 to 10 min of engagement time after flying around for 45 min looking for love. In the CT this is the compleat oppset, we fight all the time all week long and these issues become very apparent, and are examplified in the Kate.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Squire
The IJN needed the B5N because it was their primary torpedo a/c in the early war, especially Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Midway, and into 1943.

SBD , TBF, and F4F were in service at the SAME TIME as the A6M2 Zeke and the D3A Val and B5N Kate. Btw ALL those US types first flew BEFORE Pearl Harbor too.

Im sure late war IJ a/c are coming, I for one think they should be a top priority, but the IJ needed a proper torp ac (no more TBF subs) for their Carriers, and now they are getting one!

A6M2
A6M5
Ki-61 < best IJAAF fighter before Ki-84 >
Ki-67
D3A Val
B5N Kate
N1K2

Thats at least a good start? Wasnt long ago all you had was the A6M5 and the N1K2. Be happy.

Regards.

Balderdash.

There is no way in hell that you can excuse giving the Japanese 1937 and 1938 models of the aircraft while giving the USN 1943 versions of theirs.  You grossly oversimplfy what is happening here.

Whay give the Japanese the less produced 1937 D3A1 rather than giving them the greater produced 1942 D3A2?

At the same time the USN gets a 1943 version of the SBD which is 40mph faster than the 1942 SBDs that fought the Battle of Midway.

And you gloss over that with the inane statement that they were in service at the same time?  Well so were the SBD-5 and the D4Y, or the SBD-2 and D3A2.  The particular combination selected maximizes the US's advantage.

We get the 1938 version of the B5N, not the armed 1939 version (this may change, but the model shown lacks forward guns).

Balanced against this the USN gets the TBM-3 which was just entering service in mid-1942 and served for the rest of the war.  

Contrary to you're statement we do not have the TBF, if we did it would be uncharacteristicly balanced.

To balance against the TBM-3 the Japanese should have gotten the B6N2.  That is also a Japanese torpedo bomber that would have eliminated the need to sub in the TBM, but it might acyually have stood a snowballs chance in hell of reaching the target.

And no, the Ki.61 was not the best IJA fighter before the Ki.84.  That would have been the Ki.44.

[Löwe]

Originally posted by oboe
Hawk!   When was the Battle of Midway?!   You better fix that error, bud.
The A6M3 and the Ki.43 and Ki.44 would add depth to the mid-war planeset, and the Ki.45 would give us some much needed ground attack punch, with its 2 20mms and a 37mm in the nose.
 

Actually Oboe-san the A6M3 would help the early war plane set too. The A6M3 was on the IJN carriers at the Battle of Midway.
No doubt this sim needs more Japanese iron immediatly if not sooner.

[Jester]

I have seen the problem from both sides having flown Navy birds with VF-27 Hellcats and the Japaneses birds with the 27th Sentai and I can tell you for a FACT that the Japanese plane set is the one getting the "PROP SHAFT."

What we need, IMHO, are more late war Japanese birds like the FRANK & JACK fighters & the JUDY & GRACE (that's for you Brady ) bombers.

Before you say it - I know we have the GEORGE (Niki) but folks lets face it - it's not a FRANK and the paper ZERO's and early carrier bombers are basicly a joke. Good for an early war set-up but only fit for "target practice" & Kamakaze runs in the late war set ups.

There does seem to be an Allied bias (intended or not) with the Allies getting the later model planes while the Japanese side gets the early model versions of planes. D3A-1 VAL instead of more produced D3A-2 is a glaring example. Frankly it is hurting the CT because most players simply refuse to fly the Japanese plane set.

I for one would LOVE to see the Japanese get some better planes. This would make the combats in the arenas more intense and would open more late war scenarios for the CT like the Philippines, Okinawa, Iwo Jima or even the Battle of Japan. It might also accidently draw more folks to the Axis side in the CT therefore making flying there more exciteing.

IMO the Allied side has "more than enough" planes in their hangar for the moment. The Axis is the side that needs a real boost.

We really need to see are some of the following A/C first in 1.11:

JAPANESE: (First priority)
 
FRANK (First and formost!)
JACK
TOJO
JUDY
GRACE (ok, ok Brady I got it in! )
or
JILL

(And quit taking the GEORGE out of the plane roster or banishing it to the boondocks during every PTO scenario.)

[J_A_B]

I agree with Karnak completely.


We have the A6M2 version of the Zero, which was being replaced by the A6M3 as early as mid 1942.  I believe there were A6M3's at Midway although I'm not sure of this.   The A6M3 was certainly far more important overall than the A6M2, yet we have the "2".   The A6M5 we have is the worst possible A6M5 in terms of performance because of weight added (A6M5a would have been better IMO).

The F4F-4 we have wasn't in common use until mid 1942 (Midway....the older F4F-3's were still in use at Coral Sea).   While there wasnt much of a performance difference between the two, the F4F-3 didn't have the 6 .50's.   In general CT setups we end up with the worst-possible 1942 Zeke fighting the best 1942 USN fighter.   We also have the latest, best version of the F6F fighter (as opposed to the worst possible A6M5).

The TBM we have has 2 .50's firing forward, as opposed to the single .30 carried by the 1942-era TBF.   So we have the best possible Avenger and apparenty the worst Kate (judging by the pictures).  Even the best Kate would still be, at best, roughly a match for the TBF (NOT the TBM).

We have the best possible SBD and the worst of the D3A series (this one makes no sense at all).   Personally I would have added a Helldiver and Judy in place of the Dauntless and Val (more useful in AH environment), but those were added on the basis of that poll we had awhile back.  Why they added the D3A1 instead of the D3A2....who can say?


The early-war Japanese planeset is definately out of whack.

J_A_B

[brady]

I am quiet certain that the Kate had no offensive gun's.

[J_A_B]

Indeed, the Kate lacked offensive weapons.  While some sources list it as having a pair of light machine guns above the engine, photographs show this as being untrue.  The Kate we're getting is the worst possible because there is no WW2 Japanese torpedo plane with worse performance.   It is the Japanese equal to the TBD Devastator--famous, but the worst of its kind.

The later B6N also lacked forward-firing weapons.  However, later B6N's were equipped with a 12.7mm gun and also had a ventral weapon, giving them comparible defensive firepower to the TBM, and they could also match the Avenger's speed (I believe they were actually faster at low levels).   From a performance AND a historical perspective, the B6N model 12a is the best match for the TBM.  

Here's to hoping we eventually get one  

J_A_B

[brady]

True, the Jill had the Navy 13mm MG which was prety much the same gun as the US 50cal(it was a coppy, looked like it even), not like the army vershion on the Tony or the Ki 67, which was scaled down somewhat.

 The Jill also had a top speed of around 300mph, about 70mph faster than the Kate.

[ergRTC]

I think the problem here is a little deeper than just what the planes were at the time of a midway scenario.

The japanese didnt lose the war because there planes sucked.  The lost the war because they couldnt maintain them, keep trained pilots in them, or have the foresight to see that boom and zoom would mean more than turn fighting.

After 1943 the ijn and ija were spanked, they had crap fer planes, and crap fer ground crews.  It didnt matter if a ki 84 rolled down the line cause it couldnt be kept in running condition in the field.  

Now if you want to recreate 'important' battles of the pacific, that means 1943/42 and earlier.  The slow f4f vs the fast a6m2 is a nice match up.  If you are alone in either vs. two of the opponent you are both screwed.   .  

Planes like the kate, or the ki 43 are important becuase those are the planes that the ijn and ija kicked our tulips with.  Planes like the ki 84 dont matter cause they couldnt keep em running, and we had a huge numerical and strategic advantage at that point in the war.  

Should we start 'reliving' late war battles?  Lets say every other japanese plane suddenly has 1900 pounds of explosives added to it, or the engine only make 2500 rpm.  

Those of you that think the f4u1 vs the 190 is an easy or even fight (I remember the first couple of ct setups the vf27 were in, OUCH!! we got our tulips handed to us night after night by the luftwaffe, just ask lowe), or the f4f vs the zero is an even fight should join the hellcats for a while.  The only way we keep flyin the blue planes is coordination and wingman tactics.  Thats how they survived in the war too.

[brady]

ergRTC, with all due respect I think you may be over simplafing things a bit.

  It was not as black and white as u paint it in the later war perioud, most Japanese planes were lost do to allied atacks on their airfields destroying plaens on the ground, and not all plane types suffered from cronic engine or maintance issues, clearly the same argument could be used aganst the Luftwaffe in 1944 Germany, espichaly late 44 and 45 yet we have tones of German plaens from this perioud, and the US faught Japan in the CBI as well.

  The Japanese deserve the same consideration plane modeling wiese as the Germans do, we have lots of late war US Navy planes, it would be nice to have lots of late war Japanese planes to fly aganst them, or at least a few.

[Squire]

* B5N Kate has no forward gun. What would they do with a 7.7mm if they had one, dogfight F4Fs?

*TBM-3 has an extra pair of .50s as forward armament. I can see how that would be very unbalancing. Ur kidding right? They are useless except for a morale booster to the crew.

*The SBD-5 was the most numerous variant built. The earlier version at Midway (SBD-3) did 250 mph and could carry 1200lbs of bombs as well. There was not a huge difference.

*Ki-61 was the best IJAAF fighter before Ki-84 by virtue of its better turn rate, armament (20mm cannon), and comparable speed to the Ki-44. The Ki-44 was not superior as an overall fighter to Ki-61. It climbed better, and in every other category was inferior. Btw, IJAAF pilots didnt much like it either.

I see every reason for the B5N to be included. It was the IJN Carrier Arms PRIMARY weapon for the first 2 years of the Pacific war, and was the biggest thorn in the side of the USN in all the major Carrier actions during that time.

Later.