Firepower in Sabre's Burma set up.

[brady]

Lets take a look at the comparative weights of fire of the primary apponts in the Curent CT set up:

 P40b:

 Four Browning 30M2 1200 rpm / 490 rpg @ 835m/s, weight 9.73g=15.89

Two Browning 50cal 750 rpm / 380 rpg @ 870m/s, weight 48.5g=38.64

    Total:54.53

 Huricane MK I:

  Eight Browning 303's 1140 rpm / 333 rpg @ 745m/s, weight 11.3g=26.406

 
 A6M2:

 Two Type 97 7.7mm 1000 rpm / 680 rpg @750m/s, weight 11.3g=15.368

 Two Type 99 MK I 20mm 520 rpm / 60 rpg @525m/s, weight 129g=29.76

   Total:45.129

 C.202:

  Two Breda SAFAT 7.7mm 900 rpm / 500 rpg @730 m/s, weight 11.9g=13.222

  Two Breda SAFAT 12.7mm 700 rpm / 400 rpg @ 760 m/s, weight 36.7g=41.94

  Total: 55.16

  The Nate(Ki-27) and the Oscar(ki-43 early model) both had only Two 7.7mm MG's, so clearly they would be at a serious firepower disavantage, or rather "Firepower Chalanged", the A5M and it's Oerlikon MG FF which are vewry simmilar to the Type 99 MK I ( they should be the Type 99 is a licensed vershion of it), are very much on a par with the Zero, so in this respect the Zero Matches what the Claud had to delever compared with the Match up aganst the P40.

 Somthing the above Numbers do not cover is Effctive range, the US 50 cal has a tremendious effective range advantage over the 20mm and 7mm rounds on the Zero, at least 3 times the range, this being said the 50cal could acheave meaningfull hits withen an envelope at least 3 time larger than Zero's.

 Another point not covered is time on target, the 8 gun pack on the Huricane can deleaver damage Four times faster than the Japanese 7mm rounds.


   When I say the Allies have a fire Power advantage this is what I am refering to, compound that advantage with the Fragile Zero, and tough P40 and Huricane and you have the full picture.

[brendo]

The importance of cannon on the A6m2 can notbe overstated.

A couple of hits on the tail of a hurricane or P40 and hes toast.

Interestingl, the zeke CAN take .30 cals hits, as l;ong as nothing impotant is hit... like to fuel tank.

[J_A_B]

Brendo has the right idea.    The cannon on the Zeke more than make up for the slightly lower weight of fire (weight of fire tends to favor MG's over cannon since it doesn't account for the chemical energy of cannon shells).     The Zero has more punch; it can do more damage in a short time.   OTOH the Allied fighters have larger ammo loads.

But like I said in that other thread, it's too late now.  Oh well maybe next time.

J_A_B

[brady]

The Chemical engery of cannon rounds virsues the pentrating effect of MG rounds have been debated at length and the general consious is that both are effective in their own right.

  So having said that a good burst of that 8 pak of 303's will saw the wing off the Zero or set to it burning, same for the gun package on the P40.

 A common thing over heard on the Japanese Local Voice: " I am RTB outa Cannon..."

 Cannon on the Zero is it's only realy effective weapon and thier is precious little ammo for them, and they go fast.

P40E:

 Six Browning 50cal 750 rpm / 235 rpg @ 870m/s, weight 48.5g=91.18

 When poundering the Ballance of the above plane set and thinking of the P40E the figure of 91.18 might seam by it's self an overwhealming advantage considering how frail the Zero is.Howeaver their are other factors preformance issues, How hard will it be for the P40 to get rounds on target, clearly the Zero is a superd preformer, but not on a grand scale, it is a much better handeling plane true, but a lot of these points fall toward that of piolet skill and knowledge of his plane and that of apponet.

 Now lets look at what was the Historical Zero that faced off aganst the "E" on more of an equial baises:

 A6M3:

Two Type 97 7.7mm 1000 rpm / 680 rpg @750m/s, weight 11.3g=15.368

Two Type 99 MKII 20mm 490 rpm /100 rpg @ 625 m/s, weight 129g=52.65

 
Total=68.021

 Now this is far better clearly but in more ways than one, the Slower rof actualy makes for imo better ammo usage, the Higher MV and longer barel mean better balastics, and thus a bigger envelope to be able to land meaningfull shots in.

[eskimo2]

I typically have maybe one colision a week.  Yesterday, I had 5.  I usually keep firing at a plane until something vital breaks off.  To me, th colisions are an indication that my guns suck, I've got to keep shooting until I'm too close.  
I've also cut my deflection cannon shooting down to about 1/2 or 1/3 of my typical shooting range.  
I've also been focusing my shots on the enemy plane's tail, while I typically shoot at the entire plane.

All guns in this set-up suck.  As they should in an early war set-up.

eskimo

[Wotan]

The "cannon" on the zeke are not your typical "cannon" round. They relied on chemical energy not in their penetration capability.

Its great how allied guys tell the folks who fly these planes how effective they are. They are not. d300 is the absolute maximum range for these rounds to be effective.

.50 cal and hispano rounds can easily destroy aircraft up to d800 and cause damage up to 1.2k. All .50 cal and hizooka planes can reach out and grab ya. For a a6m2 to be effective it has to be in close. The slightest evasives at speeds above 325 the a6m2 has a tough time following. No matter what the speed advantage or accelleration or climb advantage the .50 cal and hizooka plane turn on the hose and hold that trigger down until you are 1.5 out most of the time.

Those of you who doudt the ranges at which .50 cals and hispanos can reach you are living in a dream world.

There are 60 rpg in the a6m2. They fire together. Thats 60 trigger pulls. It cant do more damage in a shorter time. It can do more damage closer in with less rounds. But it cant deliver rounds faster the any other type gun.

In rl they didnt have this problem. With the exception of a few anecdotal and unverified claims most pilots in all sides during world war 2 say that hitting and killing at the ranges we see hizooka and 50 cal planes fire in ah was nothing but spray and pray.

Dont try to sell the guys who fly these planes some bs that the cannon on the a6m2 are as effective or equal to anything else in the arena. Even the hurri 1 303s can drop a planes faster then the 20s on an a6m2.

Brady is correct that when looking at balance you need to look at everything. a 50 mph speed advantage means nothing when at top speed the a6m2 is unmanuverable and if you can be hit and damaged out to 1.2k.

Every axis guy that flew in the ct regularly has moved on. They got tired of every pac event it being every allied planes verses the a6m5 and ki-61. They got tired of tunisia where the p51b and p38l were available for the allies but we end up hearing the allied whines that the a5 is too good or that they need the spit 9 for "balance".

So the a6m2 is faster then the p40e......... so what. The p51b was not only faster then the a6m5 but its 4 50s could reach out and grab you from ranges that the a6m2 could never get on your slow p40e.

I could list numerous set ups where the axis ave had the very same circumstance as the allies claim having to face the a6m2 in p40bs.

Suk it up ..........

Brady is dead on here..............

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Wotan
.

So the a6m2 is faster then the p40e......... so what. The p51b was not only faster then the a6m5 but its 4 50s could reach out and grab you from ranges that the a6m2 could never get on your slow p40e.

Has anyone tested this in AH?  I've been having P-40s consistantly outrunning me in my A6M (low).

eskimo

[Wotan]

actually I hadnt checked

the top speed for the a6m2 is at 15k 330 mph

top speed p40b is 340 at 18k

The p40b is faster at all alts up to 20k and has it greatest speed advantage between 18 and 19k.

The p40b dives way better then the a6m2. It has greater control at higher speeds.

The p40b should just about own a zeke. The p40b when in trouble can dive away at will. If the zeke follows at those speeds the p40 can out turn and out fly it.

I guess I bought into the AWM. The p40b should handle its own in this set up. The p40 is faster and dives better. The a6m2 climbs and turns better a speeds under 350.

The a6m2 is faster above 20k only...........but its not like you can b n z in it.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Wotan
actually I hadnt checked

the top speed for the a6m2 is at 15k 330 mph

top speed p40b is 340 at 18k

The p40b is faster at all alts up to 20k and has it greatest speed advantage between 18 and 19k.

The p40b dives way better then the a6m2. It has greater control at higher speeds.

The p40b should just about own a zeke. The p40b when in trouble can dive away at will. If the zeke follows at those speeds the p40 can out turn and out fly it.

I guess I bought into the AWM. The p40b should handle its own in this set up. The p40 is faster and dives better. The a6m2 climbs and turns better a speeds under 350.

The a6m2 is faster above 20k only...........but its not like you can b n z in it.

Thanks Wotan, I thought that's about how it was.

Very cool charts BTW, where did you find them?

eskimo

[Wotan]

Here

Jochen put these together using the data from the ah charts.

Scroll to the bottom and you can ebter climb/speed for all ah fighters.

[J_A_B]

Actually those charts don't always match the AH charts.   I'm not sure which are accurate.

BTW Brady, the real historical opponent for the P-40E is neither the A6M2 nor the A6M3, it is the Ki-43-I/Ki-43-II.  You're trying to make it look as if we're short-changing the Japanese by using the A6M2, when in reality they have a fighter which is vastly superior to what they were actually using!    

Wotan complaint that once the Zero is out of cannons it has to RTB because all it has is 7.7's is funny....well guess what Wotan, all the Japanese fighters in Burma had at this time was 7.7's...well okay the Ki-43-Ia had one 12.7.  Now *I* would NEVER make a setup restricting one side to only 2 light MG's (although I'm sure some of the CT staffers would if we had a Ki-43/Ki-27), BUT to complain about the Zeke's firepower when it is FAR better than what the Japanese were actually using at the time......that's just funny.


Wotan--

While I understand what you're saying, the poor balance of the CT setups isn't anyone's fault but the CT staffers.  They're the ones in charge so they need to take responsibility for goofing up.  It's not our (the players) fault, not HTC's fault, nobody's fault but theirs.   Long ago I had some discussions with some of them about being historical vs being balanced and I was ignored.....they slaved themselves to the idea of trying to be historical at all costs for so long that it hurt.   Only recently have they begun to open their minds a little.


Oh, next time we have a late-war Germany setup, I fully expect the LW to NOT get the Me-262 (even as a perk).  As the omission of the P-40E proves, if a fighter is good enough that people would fly it instead of the "bad" one, then it must not be included at all.  C'mon guys, you want to be "fair" to both sides don't you??  

J_A_B

[Löwe]

Wotan speaks the truth.
I'll take 2 50 cals over the 2 cannons in the A6m2 anyday.

[Wotan]

Its nobodies fault but we dont need every set up with the gameplay concession  advantages for allied aircraft.

When making game adjustments the allies are happy to use a p38l even though its a later war plane then the 190d9. They are happy with a p51b instead of earlier version.

But when the a5 was enabled (performance between the a3 a4 a5 is neglible with the accelleration edge to the a3) in tunisia even though the p38 the p51b and the d11 were available folks still argued about not having the spit 9. Even though there were only a few stationed NA itself.

No one minds gameplay concessions. We all know they are necessary. But when the concessions are always one sided folks will just say forget it.

In the bob setups folks allies whined about the the ju88a-4. Even though its only 12 mph faster then the a5 and 24 mph faster then the a1.

Brady flies these planes he flies the a6m2 in events he and I both know the 20mm on the a6m2 are not worth 2 50 cals. So when doing a Burma set up we dont have a claud so the axis get the a6m2. Its no different then subing a p51b for an early model 51.

fyi I never complained about 7mm on the a6m2. Ever. Like on the emil they are mostly worthless. The 20mm on the a6m2 are gone before you know it.

What I complain about is not that the rifle calibre and small mg are under modelled but that folks who fly allied planes fire and kill with ease at ranges that are far from real. Thats a built in gameplay concession for the allies.

Folks can deal with lower lethality guns but when with the spray and pray of the allied planes there lethality is much higher then it was in realife. Anecdotal and unverified claims be damned.

You allies ignore this time and time again. No matter what the axis planes are armed with we still need to be in close to kill with them. But with spray and pray no acceleration or speed difference will make up for it.

That chart is accurrate.

We have np not having the 262, just the allies will get no p47d, p51ds or p38ls if we are forced to fly 109g6s. Again you ignore those gameplay concessions as well.

The p40b was in burma we dont have a claud so we the zeke is a sub. Just like in tunisia where theres no early 51 or jug or p38 and the allies get late war subs.

Anyway,  it doesnt matter none of the original axis pilots who flew in the ct still fly there and theres a reason for it.

[brendo]

Well, I got 4 kills in the A6M2 and only used 50% of my cannon. I had to RTB due to my buddy P6Hawk getting a hole in his fuel tank.

I fired at ranges between 100 yards and 20.

1 or 2 shells are all that are required.

This is fairly historically accurate IMHO.

No one sniped me from range... a bit of manouvering will fix that.

When I flew a P40, I also got over 4 kills. I would have more, but my guns were not killing the zekes instantly (I think my .50 cals were missing). I fired from 300 yards.

I found the P40B nose mounted .50s wildly inaccurate.

A Zeke latched onto my tail, however I outran him 1 yard at a time. At 700 yards, he was plinking away, however I was not concened due to the massvive range for 8mm.



Incidently, I have about 20 kills flying the Spit I in the MA so far....... and no deaths.

[Eagler]

"..the Fragile Zero.."

ain't seen to many these, if any in this setup

flaming smoking, they fly just as well as zero damage for way to long

looking forward to next friday