Author Topic: What exactly does the pilot of a modern airliner do? (Read 2008 times)

wulfie · « **Reply #45 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:40:39 AM »

Re: mismanagement, I'll never forget hearing a Northwest pilot explain 'Al Chechi' (sp? the guy ran for Gov. of CA. a few years back):

"He took an airline with millions in cash in the bank, brought his buddies in as 'consultants', blackmailed an entire State to keep Northwest basing and thus voters' jobs in that State, and somehow managed to have Northwest on the edge of disaster in only a few years."

There are times when I'm not fond of unions, but for every greed induced screwing of the public by a union there's at least one greed induced screwing of the public by corporate officers I'd say.

Mike/wulfie

whgates3 · « **Reply #46 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:40:52 AM »

planes that are easy to fly are much more likley to end up w/ wheel on the tarmac - anyone think pilots would end up asleep in the cockpit if they thought they were about to die as a result?
airlines can get cheapo pilots if they want it, but they paid $100million for the plane & who-knows what for the insurance (which will go up if they use lesser pilots). on the botton line a pilot who knows hes worth six figures & is willing to hold out for it is probably ceaper than Mr. 'i'll fly for $35k if you dont ask about the discharge'

Curval · « **Reply #47 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:50:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Creamo
Curval, all you did was nearly trip over Rip in your shameless, retarded spiteful enthusiasm, thinking I worked for a failing carrier, over a simple bbs comment on union wages. Did it hurt your “important businessman libido with super secret clients” so bad?

Geezus, you couldn’t make a practical response on the issues when called on it, and now utter how it was all a “all I was trying to do was get a rise out of Creamo”.

How hard has anyone tried, in 3 or more different threads, to make me respond, and what’s your interest in me to make yourself sound so foolish to get my response? Weird.

Creamo...in all honesty I regret that thread and am not afraid to admit it. I did make myself look foolish and I apologise. Okay? Can we kiss and make up now? You can even put that in your signature...I kinda deserve it.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #48 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:56:13 AM »

Toad tell me what operating expenses are not allowed under the DOT rules and possibly where I could look these rules up.

No dodging this time please, just give me the info I asked fof.

john9001 · « **Reply #49 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:56:28 AM »

what do CEO's do ?

funkedup · « **Reply #50 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:57:59 AM »

Grunherz get a book on aviation or something. They do a very complicated job and have the lives of thousands of people in their hands every day.

I'm sure that en route, their job is often boring and simple.
But approach and departure and taxiing are very complicated and have a very fast tempo of decision making and reactions.

And if there is an emergency, they have to have an incredible knowledge of the plane's systems and make decisions very quickly. And often in an emergency they get to show off that "pilot stuff".

Do you think doctors are overpaid? Airline pilots have similar levels of education and affect the life or death of far more people than any doctor could imagine.

Creamo · « **Reply #51 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:58:00 AM »

Seems fair to me, sure. (not the kissing stuff and sig though)

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #52 on:** December 18, 2002, 11:02:24 AM »

Airline pilots are overpaid only when they screw up....

-SW

miko2d · « **Reply #53 on:** December 18, 2002, 11:03:07 AM »

Toad: Miko, I'll be back. Some good stuff there that deserves an answer.
For example the replacing the CEO bit.
How long do you think it would take to replace a trained and qualified, unionised B767 Captain?

I never said that some particular profession or an individual in some profession is not underpaid under union rules. If qualified B767 captains are such a rare catch, their free-market salaries would be high enough to balance supply and demand.

Forget ex-military. Your company could add flights, hire qualified willing B767 captains laid-off by bancrupt competitors and make money on their flights - if it hired them for wages lower than union-set wages in your company.

Dinger: And it's those damn unions that keep wages high and qualifications down. Without them, corporations could get great prices on skilled labor. All they need to do is get together and fix some wages. After all, what's one unemployed schmuck gonna do against the combined corporate weight of an entire industry?

Nobody here is arguin that capital monopoly is any better than labor monopoly. Both are only possible when entry for labor and capital is artificially restricted.
BTW, do you really beliveve that higher union wages come out of pocket of a capitalist? Not really.
The guy who pays for it most is someone who cannot get a job at all because it is not profitable to hire any more people at union wages and not legal to give him a job at lower wages even if he is willing to take it.
The customer pays for it too through higher expence.
Then the guys who lose jobs/income because customer paid extra money for union wages and does not have it to pay for their services.
In some situations a capitalist does suffer some of the losses too - by getting lowre return on capital. So an your elderly lady who has no income other than pansion fund could turn that thermostat down a few degrees so that a union worker would have better salary.

Of course extra money paid to the union worker go to the economy too. But it is not a customer who is now freely determining who should get what but some union boss.

Also, unions cannot operate in conditions of free competition - as a non-unionised company would compete their company out of business. That's why unions along with capitalists lobby politicians to restrict competition in their industry - then they can jack prices as high as they want and happily divide the monopolistic spoills. Unions are friends of capitalist monopoly - they depend on it.

Companies that are capable of restricting compenition, establishing monopoly and setting fixed prices on labor against union opposition would be much more likely - and earlier - to establish a monopoly and set fixed prices on products with union support. When airlines and union lobbied work together rather than against each other - to prevent new airlines opening, to restrict access of foreign airlines to our market, etc. - they are much more successfull.

Besides, only free competition ensures the most efficient utilisation of resources in a society. Moving money from one pocket to another is not a zero-sum game. It costs growth and job creation, not counting restrictions on freedom of choice for employees and customers.

Free market is based on chance but it does provide security of opportunity. By limiting that opportunity, security for unionised labor is increased at the expence of the rest - who's insecurity must increase.

miko

Dinger · « **Reply #54 on:** December 18, 2002, 11:03:36 AM »

doctors have malpractice insurance, the AMA and a hospital that will stand behind them in all but the most blatant cases of incompetence.

but those evil Airline Pilots have a union instead.

moose · « **Reply #55 on:** December 18, 2002, 11:55:12 AM »

Grun do you even have the slightest clue how many hours and years of training it takes to become an airline pilot?

Besides doctors, how many other professions put you in control of hundreds of lives and require tens of thousands of hours of training?

To just get my basic commercial license it will cost me close to $15,000.

thats at 200 hours of training

To get hired by the local commuter airline, CapeAir, I'll need 1000 hours, multiengine too.

So now I've spent prolly at least 50k or so in training expenses, guess what my starting pay there would be?

$9 an HOUR

Airline pilots work for what they make.

miko2d · « **Reply #56 on:** December 18, 2002, 12:13:50 PM »

moose: So now I've spent prolly at least 50k or so in training expenses, guess what my starting pay there would be?
$9 an HOUR

That would indicate to me that either they do not really need pilots but are willing to hire a guy for $18,000 a year - rather than leave him unemployed.
Or there are so many people willing to spend money and time training and so much desire to become a pilot that they are would take $18,000.
Or maybe both.

If you moved to NYC and got education as a nurse, you could have had your choice of $45,000 a year jobs.

If the big companies could hire pilots for less, they could offer cheaper fares and fly more planes and need more pilots. Their top-seniority pilots would probably be paid less but there would be jobs for new pilots at better rates.
God forbid, they could experience a shortage of pilots and offer you even more money and training at their own expence - not an unheard of business practice. But of course the union would never allow that.

miko

28sweep · « **Reply #57 on:** December 18, 2002, 12:52:03 PM »

You think These guys are overpaid? The average pay for a pilot at "Airtrans" is like 29k. They are flying Dc9's and 717. There a lot of guys outhere willing to get screwed just to aquire jet time. Thats the entire business model for the Regional Jet carriers. Screw the pilot by paying him 18k. Some of thier family's are on welfare. WELFARE for the PILOT OF A RJ jet!!! Those guys put up with it to get jet time. Seriously, the sacrifices a guy must endure to get to the "big time" are very serious ( yes even in the military).

Dago · « **Reply #58 on:** December 18, 2002, 12:53:18 PM »

Quote

Besides doctors, how many other professions put you in control of hundreds of lives and require tens of thousands of hours of training? To just get my basic commercial license it will cost me close to $15,000.

thats at 200 hours of training

Wait a minute, tens of thousands of hours of training? You can do it in only 200? What do you have over those other dimwits?

No, it doesnt take tens of thousands of hours. Yes, it takes only 200 hrs, or maybe 250 if you dont go through an approved school, but do it at the local airport. With that, you can start flying commercially. You can even fly right seat in an airliner, legally anyway if you can get someone willing to put you there.

To fly as Capt in an airliner, you need an ATP. That requires 1500 hrs total time, not total training time. Try not to exagerrate.

HELL yes todays airline pilots are overpaid. They might try and justify it, but when United agreed to pay their senior Capts in excess of $400,000 a year, I thought that was just plain stupid. They are now suffering the consequences of bad financial decisions such as that.

Reality is this, the average Capt does not have it to darn hard, but he does carry a serious load of responsibility. Should they be paid so much, probably not.

While not an airline pilot, I work for an airline, and I am a licensed pilot. I have ridden the jump seat on alot of airline flights. They got it pretty darn good.

Pilots should be paid on the basis of supply and demand like so many other jobs, not because they have a strong union. dont you think if you offered to let a pilot fly a 747 for, oh say, $125k a year, you could get a fair amount of takers? Sure dont need to pay $400k.

dago

Creamo · « **Reply #59 on:** December 18, 2002, 12:56:56 PM »

Miko, you ramble on here, touching on some points you obviously have no hands on knowledge of, explaining other points with impossible vagueness, all the while generalizing your own roadkill to a incomprehensible babble of really hard to understand nonsense. Yet it's delivered like it should be Gods word and the truth.

Entertaining enough, but still amazing!

I gotta work on the boozonics, you are WAY ahead.