Christians, doesn't it annoy you...

[Kieran]

I have to thank you guys for this question... it was some interesting reading for me.

Hebrews 11:6 is probably the most relevant passage... in effect, it says people are judged by how they act on what knowledge of God they possess.

Now on the surface that looks like people that never heard of God are screwed. Not so. People are judged by how they act on what knowledge of God they possess suggests if they have no knowledge of God, they can't be held accountable. This takes care of infant deaths, the mentally handicapped, or those that die too young to really know God.

But... is this a free ticket for the gentleman from Boogaloo? No. God built into every person an innate knowledge of a higher being... and, He sent the Holy Spirit. Even the scientists amongst you will admit worshipping deities is pretty much a universal human trait. Arguably this is placed by God so that man will seek Him.

Now this is the part I like best... one of the knocks you hear on religion is it isn't unified, and that even believers cannot decide what to believe, or who's right. Well... it may not matter a great deal. Acting on the faith and knowledge you possess is the important thing. I'll have to study that one a lot closer, but it is something I had not considered before.

[dfl8rms]

I believe that the first chapter of Romans addresses Bob's situation:

Romans 1: 18-26 NKJV
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Even though Bob did not hear the Word of God from a human, his desire to worship multiple dieties was a perversion of his recognition that there is a creator.

And the Word of God states the following as a consequence  of sin:

Romans 1:26-32
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[VFJACKAL]

First of all..I am the Grandson of 2 ministers. I am the oldest brother of 1. My grandfathers were more the Fire and Brimstone type. (Pentecostal) My Brother (who has been a minister for a few years and I just now heard him preach 2 weeks ago) is more the Type of christian you seem to be. He's AOG ordained.

  I just wanted to commend you on your way of handling this disscussion. This is not to knock some of the others here , but more to say , that you are the type of Christian I can get along with.

  Being brought up in a christian home , I do believe in God. Having Grandfathers and a Brother who are ministers in some way makes it almost a must. Not sure why. Recently in our family we have had some hardships. My Mother has been diagnosed with Cancer and it's terminal. Some other things have happend as well. Not getting into it here.

  Reading your words in professing your belief as well as the others who believe are refreshing in a world that is trying it's best to make christianity even harder work than it is. I'm not a good christian by any means. That is ti say I was as they say saved but don't live the life I should. I know the ultimate outcome if I don't get right with God. However......

  I have a question for you.  What in your mind is heaven like. I know the bibles answer. But I would like to hear yours. What do YOU think it is....

  St.Santa......
  don't take this as a hijack bud....Just trying to ask a question of someone whom after reading alot from on this BBS from them , I'm learning to respect his opinion more and more.

    Thanks Kieran and Santa for the disscussion.

[Kieran]

VFJackal-

Thanks for the words. Actually, you ought to thank Mr.Fish and St.Santa more. They are the ones that force us all to think. Sorry to hear about the hardship you are going through right now, but it is good to hear you are staying strong in the faith. I wish I could say I was a great Christian too, but I have a long way to go- a looong way to go.

Heaven... I don't really know. There's plenty of talk in the Bible about God on a throne with Jesus on his right hand, and references to such things as "jewels" and "crowns", but I can't tell if that is metaphorical or literal. I don't know if we'll know one another in Heaven. The things I can be sure can be taken literally are references to there being no sickness or death, sadness or suffering, and that it will last forever. Beyond that, I can only guess. My feeling is that the Bible describes Heaven in terms the people of the time could understand, but that is only an opinion.

For that matter, I am uncertain about Hell. Is it literally a lake of fire? An abyss? Is it separation from God, and if so, is "lake of fire" analogous to the suffering such separation brings? I think of Jesus on the cross when He suffered the separation. He was certainly in agony there... I think that would be an interesting debate.

[K98k]

That is ti say I was as they say saved but don't live the life I should. I know the ultimate outcome if I don't get right with God. However......

Hope I read this right.  If you've been saved the ultimate outcome is an eternity with the Father it is a gift that cannot be undone or taken away by anything or anyone.  Even if you've backslid.  We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.  Rather good news I'd say.

[Kieran]

John 6:39

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me."

I John 2:3-6

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

[VFJACKAL]

K98k......

  Backslid is a word from the past. Thats a good way to descibe me at this point. God and I have had a falling out as of late. My faith is being tested to the fullest right now with certain things.

  Kieran,

 My wife and I recently had this very disscussion. Thrones and Jewels and what nots I take as metaphorical. I really believe Heaven will be all the good things in your life. That each of us will have our own pieces of heaven in kind of the way the bible says. We each will have the things (not really material) that we loved. Each of us will know no sorrow and sadness as you stated. No sickness and death. I think that heaven for me will be a place that I find the most solice. The most contentmant. A place where I feel the most peace. Maybe my little piece of heaven will be a golf course. Perhaps it will be by my wifes side for all eternity. Maybe it will be both. Both would be my truest heaven. I want to think that heaven will be for each person a lil different. That each of us has something that truly makes us at peace and that is what each of us know as heaven. The true things in life on earth that make us our best is what we get to have all the time in heaven.

  As far as hell goes....I think it will be much like where we are at now. I have a hard time thinking that a God so compassionate would make his children to suffer so painful an eternity. I think that is like the metaphorical parts of heaven. I think that it will be your worst nightmares you can imagine. Death , Haunger , strife , suffering on a scale that we haven't seen. Pain and distress will be the norm. Disease and all the things bad in the world will be on a scale unimaginalbe to us. That would be my version of hell.

  But you are right...I think it would be an interesting debate.

[NOD2000]

anwser to the origianl question YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND HELL YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I work with some hard core Cristians and they always bring up the subject of religion. They always try and convince me to go to there church. Their whole church is a scam FOR GOD SAKES THE PRIEST DRIVES A PORCHE AND THE CHURCH HAS ITS OWN CHANNEL AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SEES SCANDAL!!!!!!!!!

Soon enough they will have a law suite on their hands, so,  on them i was Cristian till I saw these ignorant baffons fall right into this scandal

once they try to convert me at work well lets just say there is a law about seperation of chuch and state so their getting sued very soon!

[H. Godwineson]

NOD2000,

Please go back over your post and check for spelling errors.  I will recheck it in 30 minutes.  There will be a written spelling test tomorrow.

Shuckins

[Kieran]

NOD2000-

I'll be the first to tell you that many churches are in trouble, and many Christians aren't behaving as Christians.

OTOH, wealth isn't necessarily a sign of scandal. Solomon was one of the richest men on earth, but he did great works for God. Of course he strayed as well, but in the end he came back to God.

The real problem with wealth is not wealth itself, but how the individual handles it.

[StSanta]

VFJackal, go ahead. This is more of a general discussion evolving. And an interesting one.

[VFJACKAL]

I appreciate that Santa..... And Santa...Just a curious question..If you did believe in God...What would be your perspective of what Heaven and Hell would be like?  I get the feeling that you have read alot of the bible and have a general knowledge of what it teaches.:)This is no way a slam...Just wondering what you think it would be?

  Anyone elses perspective is welcome as well....Or should this be another Topic?

[NOD2000]

Kieran the problem is that this church claims all money given to them (this encludes donations, collections,all money given to the church) goes to the poor. The church supports its self by selling their daily prayers, T-shirts, and Books on the channel. My freind works for the churches accounting firm that they use. I have added up all hte figures over and over agian and they are short 50 thousand dollars for all that they had bought. Over the yearthey had collected 60 thousand dollars from regular collections. You tell me where they came up with 50 thousand dollars out of no where. I only can find that they took the 50G out of collection money to make there "needed purchases" aka Porche insurence and their TV channel which is what they were short on.

[Kieran]

I am not arguing whether or not your church is corrupt. However, I do have to question the ethics of your friend. The church's books are none of your business unless you work for them, or you ask to see them in the presence of the deacons or administrative personnel.

Edit "churches" to "church's"

[NOD2000]

Yes, I talked to the preist and he said that it was ok

sorry i forgot to include that earlier.