Author Topic: Christians, doesn't it annoy you...  (Read 3750 times)

Offline mrfish

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Christians, doesn't it annoy you...
« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2003, 03:38:51 PM »
kieran- freewill couldn't exist in a universed fitted with an omniscient god. everything would be known so every choice would at minumum be a kind of prophecy fulfillment. but we can look around every day and see that freewill does exist, and that your choices do make a difference and by choosing one way over the other we can effect the way our lives go.

that suggests to me that if there is a god, it isn't like the one we're imagining. freewill is just a weird phenomenon that is a biproduct of us being stuck in a one way dimension in time. if it were like the spatial dimensions we could go forward and backward in it and freewill wouldn't have the same meaning. blame time :)

it's just interesting on it's own it doesn't need to eminate from god to be worth thinking about.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2003, 03:43:44 PM »
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kieran- freewill couldn't exist in a universed fitted with an omniscient god. everything would be known so every choice would at minumum be a kind of prophecy fulfillment.


And how does this eliminate free will? This is where the logic breaks down IMHO.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2003, 05:36:20 PM »
Try this perspective. God, in a realm beyond time and space (difficult to imagine) creates the universe. Because time itself is his creation he does not live in the same linear fashion as his creation but rather is able to see it from beginning to end.

In his creation is the potential for great goodness, love, and kindness but also the potential for great evil, hate, and selfishness.

Why did God create the potential for evil? Without seeing the whole picture it can be hard to understand. Nevertheless, I can accept that to achieve his goal, God found it desireable to do just that. Maybe to achieve the greatness he desired of his creation it was necessary for there to be a struggle? I can only speculate.
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Offline Arfann

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« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2003, 10:09:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
More appropriately, not an omniscent person with his focus on the world, I'd say. There's the bigger picture you see, and that bigger picture is eternity. So yeah, there's suffering here on earth, but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing compared to eternity.


Ewe, the eternity in Hell card. I'm soooo scared. Fear and guilt do not a healthy here and now make.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2003, 11:06:20 PM »
Although true, that's not what I meant. I meant that whatever suffering we go through on earth is temporary.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2003, 05:48:33 AM »
Kieran, the problem with free will as has been stated before is that it is a localized phenomena.

Meaning that each individual might have free will, might have the possibility to choose between A and B, but on the grander scale, there is knowledge of exactly what said individual will choose.

So God gave us free will. Even before he did this, even before we were created, he knew exactly what our choices would be.

When a path is known, a random element such as free will is by and large eliminated in the grander perspective.

It's akin to having a computer program where you have a randomizer and depending on what it outputs, A or B is chosen. Now, nothing is random in a computer (there are however various ways of getting a quite random number) and if the conditions are the same each time the program is run, the outcome will be exactly the same. Gods knowledge of us is similar to such a program.

After all, he set the conditions, he created the algorithm. And still he chooses to punish some for just following the algorithm. Or nbot punish; modern Christians are likely to argue that God isn't punishing; it is man who removes himself from God, not the other way around.

On the other hand, that argument is just a play on semantics. If I say 'either you wash my shoes or I'll kill your entire family and rape your dog, or you'll be moving away from me' you probably wouldn't accept it as you removing yourself from me - rather the conditions I've created are so harsh that it's me who is unfair.

In the free will situation there's the added problem that your future actions and the outcome is known to God.

I like you xample 'god makes it possible for you to jump. God makes you decide whether to do it or not. But he dinnae make you'. It shows the essential bit here and what's very easy to get wrong. But perhaps it is prudent to add 'God has set the conditions so that you'll jump, but outta free will' - this would more precisely reflect the situation.

Free will is a very tough philosophical question - and not even unique for Christianity. So we're not talking strictly Christianity here but a question spanning a much wider area. It is certainly interesting to get the Christian explanation however. Looking forward to more replies and I hope we can have a civil discussion without hidden remarks/contempt.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2003, 09:48:13 AM »
I remain resolute on the issue of free will. I see it as possibilities set before us, and we get to choose, good or bad. In that sense, we have the option to choose bad as well as good, and we all know that people will often choose bad knowingly.

God set the conditions? Well, not exactly... how do you know you have free will if you don't have options to select? I mean, if you go to an ice cream parlor that touts over 100 flavors to choose, and all you see on the menu is vanilla, was that a real choice?

The problem with the argument God sets all conditions for failure is it is only half true. God sets conditions for success as well. The man who jumps from the window has a way out right until the fatal leap. Boiled down to its essence, you either choose to be with God or you don't.

This isn't to say bad stuff doesn't happen to good people- it does. Job is the classic example of a man living right, yet was assailed by Satan. One of the highlights of this book is how Satan works against God, trying to undo the righteous. The book is a symbol of how we must remain faithful no matter what. The message to me is even if I think I am living right and bad stuff happens I must still praise my God. Yes, God allowed Satan to attack Job, no question; but He had also given Job the equipment to endure.

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2003, 12:18:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran

God set the conditions? Well, not exactly... how do you know you have free will if you don't have options to select? I mean, if you go to an ice cream parlor that touts over 100 flavors to choose, and all you see on the menu is vanilla, was that a real choice?


in this case you would have 31 flavors to choose from and to you it would appear as a choice. but since god knew the flavor you would pick before you were even born- before you were ever capable of making a choice- then you only have that option whether it feels like a choice or not.

before the universe was even created god knew you'd pick raspberry swirl, whether you augle the caramel fudge or pine for pistachio it is already public record in god-world that you will undoubtably pick raspberry swirl.

in order for you to have true freewill- no enitity can know the outcome- it has to depend solely on your choice- and it does not since your choice was known before you were capable of making it.

it takes a little outside the box thinking though i hate that cliche. in short, you can't create something, know exactly what it will do for eternity and then claim it ever had a choice. it only acts one way or the other because it's entire script is known before it is ever run.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2003, 12:24:38 PM by mrfish »

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2003, 01:08:29 PM »
AKIron answered it best from a Christian point of view.  Yes, God knows that person A will make some evil choice in their life and allows them to make that choice.  However, it's part of God's plan and that evil was necessary to His plan.  Why?  We don't know, we can never know in our mortal lives.

We as humans routinely commit "evil" to further ourselves, or stop other evil.  Our soldiers (police officers, and even civilians defending themselves) kill other humans.  We see this as a "necessary evil," regardless if we are Christians or athiests.  Taking a life is wrong, but sometimes it has to be done.  We all agree to this.  Now apply that to why God allows all the sufferring in the world to take place.  God knows it's necessary, and that's why he allows it to happen.  We just can't understand it as easily (or at all) like we can understand killing for a cause (to stop an evil tyrant, self defense, mercy killing, etc.)  

Part of a person's faith in their deity is believing that the vision/actions of the deity is for the overall best, even though it might suck for the individual.  Accepting that is a huge hurdle, IMO, to believing in God, or whatever deity you choose.
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2003, 02:16:47 PM »
Quote
before the universe was even created god knew you'd pick raspberry swirl, whether you augle the caramel fudge or pine for pistachio it is already public record in god-world that you will undoubtably pick raspberry swirl.

in order for you to have true freewill- no enitity can know the outcome- it has to depend solely on your choice- and it does not since your choice was known before you were capable of making it.


Point B doesn't automatically follow point A.

God knew what flavor you would pick. God also knows he let you pick.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2003, 02:24:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
in order for you to have true freewill- no enitity can know the outcome- it has to depend solely on your choice- and it does not since your choice was known before you were capable of making it.


By this are you saying that we don't have free will or that there is no one/thing that knew what you would choose?

There's a possible flaw in your logic if I understand you right. Consider that today I can look back and see what choices you and I made yesterday. Since I now irrefutably know the outcome does that mean we didn't have free will?
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2003, 03:01:34 PM »
That's more or less what I have been saying, AK. Preknowledge of what someone will do given a number of choices doesn't mean they didn't choose their path.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2003, 03:13:28 PM »
I agree Kieran, but it is a difficult concept that God could create a continuum knowing the end result when he created it and yet still allow for freedom within it.
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2003, 03:28:10 PM »
I guess I look at it differently. I see it as God creating the pieces and setting them in motion. He of course could see the paths everything would take, but it doesn't mean he directed each path.

Now there are three areas I see God intervening:

1. The fall of man
2. Giving the Law
3. The coming of Jesus

Now in the first case we have man, with his free will, choosing to go against God (original sin). God placed man in paradise free of age and illness and toil, and only asked one thing in return- to stay away from one particular tree. This man could not do, and was cast out of paradise.

In the second case, the Law represents God's Holy Word. It is given to man, and man is told to follow the Law. This too proves to be impossible, and it shows us man cannot make himself perfect, no matter how hard he tries.

Finally comes Jesus. Jesus's role is simple; He alone is the only way to heaven, and only then through grace. His ultimate blood sacrifice is the highest act of love possible, and because of this act we can be forgiven of our sins and may enter heaven- if we follow Jesus.

Each step was necessary to prepare the people, and to help them understand God.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2003, 03:51:54 PM »
Good point about the intervention Kieran.

Many have argued (not just on this board) that because God built in man the predisposition to sin that he cannot justly hold man accountable. That might be true if not for the intervention which you have so eloquently stated.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.