Christians, doesn't it annoy you...

[mrfish]

Originally posted by AKIron
By this are you saying that we don't have free will or that there is no one/thing that knew what you would choose?

There's a possible flaw in your logic if I understand you right. Consider that today I can look back and see what choices you and I made yesterday. Since I now irrefutably know the outcome does that mean we didn't have free will?

well what does your common sense tell you? it's one of two things- either there is freewill- i mean you can choose between one thing and the next can't you? so it seems to be the case

or

 if our entire histories are known by some entity then no there isn't freewill- it has to be the case because if our entire histories  and futures are known then they only have on possible path- if they only have one possible path then a certain chain of events HAS to happen. if i am an actor in the scenario then i am obliged to it from the second i exist.

i'll never know or care because only the things i have control over matter and from where i sit, i appear to have freewill so i am acting as if i do. it's the only choice that makes sense.

as for your second point i thought it was obvious that knowing the outcome of the event  before the event took place would be a precondition. knowing something after it happens doesn't effect your ability to make the decision because it is at a point along the timeline beyond the point where you had a chance to exercise your will. i don't get your connection frankly....

i don't believe there is a single path through time, but the good paths are also blatant common sense: don't rob, you know why? because if we don't rob as a society we don't have to spend time defending against robbers- it's more efficient. people are too dim still to come to those conculsions, they still think lifting a purse will advance their position but only because they can't follow the consequences of their action through more than a few iterations - like someone who is bad at chess. i'd like to think the future would be brighter though, let's hope.

kieran:
sodom and gomorah: didn't work
moses+commandments: didn't work
flood: didn't work
jesus: didn't work
etc.....etc............

are you saying that god cooks up a plan to help us see the light now and then but sometimes the plan isn't a complete success? you mean god fails? or are you like the other guy who says it only seems like god fails but really it's just too complicated for us to understand? that record is starting to skip frankly.... i don't think you are panning back far enough so to speak....

[AKIron]

Originally posted by mrfish
i don't think you are panning back far enough so to speak....

I don't think you see far enough ahead to judge that.

Free will has been debated by many for a long time. Since it is beyond human experience to see the future before it happens I can understand how you feel concerning the lack thereof if everything is predestined. Nonetheless, I think it is the case.

[Kieran]

are you saying that god cooks up a plan to help us see the light now and then but sometimes the plan isn't a complete success? you mean god fails? or are you like the other guy who says it only seems like god fails but really it's just too complicated for us to understand? that record is starting to skip frankly.... i don't think you are panning back far enough so to speak....

Nope, not saying that at all.

I am saying God made us. He gave us free will. He knows by doing so some will not choose to be with Him. He provided a way to show man the necessity of choosing Him. He did this in three phases: He showed how man failed (original sin); He showed how man could not make himself perfect again (the Law); and He showed how Jesus alone could defeat death, and how through the sacrifice of the ultimate innocent, our sins our forgiven.

It is methodical and sequential, and makes perfect sense. These three events are not "patches" for a flawed plan, they are part of the plan. As far as predestiny is concerned, yes, I believe these three events are preordained. This does not mean individual paths are set in stone. In fact, it's because God did not set the paths in stone it was necessary to create the three preordained events mentioned above.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Kieran
Nope, not saying that at all.

I am saying God made us. He gave us free will. He knows by doing so some will not choose to be with Him. He provided a way to show man the necessity of choosing Him. He did this in three phases: He showed how man failed (original sin); He showed how man could not make himself perfect again (the Law); and He showed how Jesus alone could defeat death, and how through the sacrifice of the ultimate innocent, our sins our forgiven.

It is methodical and sequential, and makes perfect sense. These three events are not "patches" for a flawed plan, they are part of the plan. As far as predestiny is concerned, yes, I believe these three events are preordained. This does not mean individual paths are set in stone. In fact, it's because God did not set the paths in stone it was necessary to create the three preordained events mentioned above.

ok, weird plan though, sorry, can't get into it. your faith is cool though, it's better than apathy

[Ping]

I think everyone is missing a key ingrediant here.
 Satan..formerly a perfect angel.. deceived Eve into sin and Adam..led by his groin.. followed her into it.

 Adam and Eve were created perfectly. It was an outside temptation that led to sin.
 Now we are left with a question, Is any of Gods mankind creation capable of following Gods laws even if faced with temptation or adversity?
 Jesus was placed on Earth as a perfect man and had to endure this, Successfully passed this test and became the perfect sacrifice, thus doing away with the mosaic law of sacrificing animals in our behalf.
 God wishes none to be destroyed but encourages all to turn to him and thus be spared.

 Yes Free Will does enter into it. None are pre-ordained to a life of Blatant sin. We all are responsable for the course we Choose to take in life.

 There are many shining examples of Men or women in the past who have  followed Gods laws and Jesus examples, showing its possible to draw close to God.

[StSanta]

Well, I'm free from sin. I've never sinned in my entire life, and I probably never will.

That's the advantage of being a non theist.

Have I been an stunninghunk from time to time? Aye. Done stupid things? Aye. But sinned? Nope.

I still think there are major holes in the free will argument. However, this sin't the proper forum for it. The proper forum is to have the discussion with people you don't know. That way there'll be no hurt feelings that have any long term consequenses. Stepping on someones faith is likely to be upsetting to that person .

[bounder]

Originally posted by Ping
I think everyone is missing a key ingrediant here.
 Satan..formerly a perfect angel.. deceived Eve into sin and Adam..led by his groin.. followed her into it.

 Adam and Eve were created perfectly. It was an outside temptation that led to sin.
-snip-
 

How can satan have been a perfect angel if his pride overcame him, and he turned against god? That strikes me as an angel who's a few vol-au-vents short of a picnic. Not the perfect creation of a perfect being.

Satan is meant to be bad

So we are left with the fact that god EITHER :-

a::deliberately created satan to turn against him, or

b::the nature of god is dualistic (i.e god is Good AND Evil).

Of course this is heresy (literally) and people have been killed for believing it ( a long time ago ).

God is ineffable. Satan is as much a part of god's 'plan' as Herod and Judas are. Those who turn against god are bound to do so of their own free will - I can't figure it out, but other people claim to understand it.

[Kieran]

The proper forum is to have the discussion with people you don't know. That way there'll be no hurt feelings that have any long term consequenses. Stepping on someones faith is likely to be upsetting to that person

Quite honestly, why? Can't you express an opinion in a way that doesn't directly insult someone for believing a certain way? I mean... have I ever insulted your disbelief?

I have absolutely zero problem discussing the issue. I only have the problem when the topic goes to "you're stupid because...", and that to me is the signal there is no discussion occurring. Even then I am not really insulted, I just have no interest in continuing if there is no real point. There really isn't anyone on the board who's ever made me made over the topic, believe it or not. The two most vocal anti-religious people on this BBS are Mr.Fish and you, and you are both articulate about it. Sure, there are others that jump in to place their one-liners, but it's like that in every thread. I generally ignore that static for what it is. The conversations with you both have been well worth it.

Sometimes I see setup lines, and I know what's coming. Sometimes I jump in, sometimes I move right along. If I get to feeling there is no point, I'd probably just ignore it.

[mrfish]

ping- your post implies that god didn't know satan would go bad or that satan is acting in a way that god didn't intend or drawing on a power that was created by some force other than god, but if that's the case god had myriad chances to stop everything and recreate it the way he wanted it to work before hand. i'd say that the concept you tend to violate in your thinking is that anything can be outside of god or originate at any point other than god.

come on santa- this is what debates are like, ever watch those politician shows? we are a lot nicer than them by a mile...you may think i'm brusque and overly honest but if you keep in mind that in rl i'm 6'3" and 235 lbs then you see i'm actually quite delicate and dainty for my size (wink wink here's a nice lace doiley i knitted to set your tea on)

i guess i don't worry about stepping on anyone's toes because most of my realizations come to me after a good flogging anyway lol- i'm extremely tough on myself regarding my beliefs because that's what it takes to keep checking yourself and to live free of conditioning and honestly, some beliefs and opinions are hard to let go of but that's the price of progress- as a human it's easy to get lulled into an easy belief-

 every ten seconds the news is repeating what i should think over and over, signs on the street and advertisements drill in the things that are supposed to be  popular in society and  keep re-emphasizing what i should think is important etc- it takes a constant effort to recalibrate yourself through all those attempts to groom you into thinking one way or another.

i'm no meaner to bbs people than i'd be to myself. except kieran of course but that's only because he's so completely wrong....

[StSanta]

Quite honestly, why? Can't you express an opinion in a way that doesn't directly insult someone for believing a certain way? I mean... have I ever insulted your disbelief? [/b}

Nah, I wasn't referring to you - rather some of my fellow no0n believers

[myelo]

Kieren, how about this:

You are going to flip a coin. What is the probability that it will be heads?

50%.

Right?

Now, let’s say I know ahead of time with absolute certainty  that when you flip the coin, it is going to be heads. Don’t worry about how I know this, I just do. And with absolute certainty – I cannot be wrong. Furthermore, I don’t tell you ahead of time.

Now when you flip the coin what is the probability that it will be heads?

100%.

Right?

After all, I knew it was going to be heads, so it has to be. Of course, since I didn’t tell you this, you thought it was a 50% probability. Little did you know it was absolutely going to be heads. Logically, I can prove this because all alternatives (that is, the coin comes up tails) violates the precondition (i.e. that I absolutely knew it would be heads.)

It’s the same thing Fish is saying. Once someone knows with absolute certainty the outcome of any event, then that is what has to happen. It can’t be random. And nobody can choose to make any other event happen. Anything else violates the precondition.

Of course it doesn’t work in retrospect, as someone tried to argue. Back to the coin flip.

This time I have no idea what the outcome is, other than there is a 50% probability that it will be heads. You flip the coin. It’s heads. Now I know with absolute certainty that it was  heads because I saw it happen. But the fact that I know this now does not change the original probability. It was still 50%.

Is that more clear?

[Kieran]

I totally 100% understand what Mr.Fish (and you) are saying, really, I do.

What I cannot make clear is the concept knowing what will happen is not the same as making something happen.

God said "This will come to pass". From our perspective we can look at it like "God is going to make this happen". Not true. God has seen what will happen and is telling us.

[myelo]

Originally posted by Kieran
What I cannot make clear is the concept knowing what will happen is not the same as making something happen.

But that’s not what we’re saying. In my example, I did not make the coin flip be heads. I was just a passive (albeit all-knowing) observer. I knew what would happen, but I didn’t make it happen. It was my perfect knowledge of what would happen that made the coin flip be heads.

In other words, we are not arguing that God would make things happen, we’re arguing that His omniscience would make them happen. What we are really arguing is omniscience and free will are logically contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both.

[H. Godwineson]

We've plowed all this ground before.  I don't believe covering it all again is going to change anyone's mind.  People tend to be very stubborn about hanging on to their religious beliefs, or lack of them.

Besides, only constructive discourse is interesting.  Much of this is self-centered and egotistical in nature, as evidence by such statements as "...only the illiterate need the opiate of a god..!"

The final scene in the play Inherit the Wind includes a confrontation between E.K. Hornbeck (atheistic journalist) and Henry Drummond (agnostic lawyer).  Upon learning of the death of Matthew Harrison Brady (prosecuting attorney in the Monkey Trial) Hornbeck irreverently blasts Brady and his beliefs.  An angry Drummond lashes out at him.

Hornbeck:  You know what I thought of him, and I know what you thought.  Let us leave the lamentations to the illiterate!  Why should we weep for him/  He cried enough for himself!  The national tear-duct from Weeping Water, Nebraska, who flooded the whole nation like a one-man Mississippi!  You know what he was:  A Barnum-bunkum Bible-beating bastard!

Drummond:  You smart-aleck!  You have no more right to spit on his religion than you have a right to spit on my religion!  Or my lack of it!

Hornbeck:  Well, what do you know!  Henry Drummond for the defense...even of his enemies!

Drummond:  There was much greatness in this man.

Hornbeck:  Shall I put that in the obituary?

Drummond:  Write anything you damn please.

Hornbeck:  How do you write an obituary for a man who's been dead thirty years?...What did he say to the minister?  It fits!  He delivered his own obituary!  (He looks about the witness stand for a Bible...spots one.)  Here it is:  his book!  Proverbs, wasn't it?

Drummond: (quietly)  He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind;  and the fool shall be servant to the wise in heart."

Hornbeck:  We're growing an odd crop of agnostics this year!

Drummond:  I'm getting damned tired of you, Hornbeck.

Hornbeck:  Why?

Drummond:  You never pushed a noun against a verb except to blow up something.

Hornbeck:  That's a typical lawyer's trick:  accusing the accuser!

Drummond:  What am I accused of?

Hornbeck:  I charge you with contempt of conscience!  Self-perjury.  Kindness aforethought.  Sentimentality in the first degree.

Drummond:  Why?  Because I refuse to erase a man's lifetime?  I tell you Brady had the same right as Cates:  the right to be wrong!

Hornbeck:  "Be-Kind-To-Bigots" Week.  Since Brady's dead, we must be kind.  God, how the world is rotten with kindness.

Drummond:  A giant once lived in that body.  But Matt Brady got lost.  Because he was looking for God too high up and too far away.


Shuckins.

[Kieran]

It was my perfect knowledge of what would happen that made the coin flip be heads.

No, it isn't. Your perfect knowledge let you know ahead of time what the coin flip would be; it didn't predetermine the outcome.

God can say from that perspective, "This is what will be." Since He has seen the future, He knows what will be. He knows what the result of a coin toss would be. His telling you the result beforehand has nothing to do with the actual flip itself.