Author Topic: Affirmative Action (Read 5908 times)

Greese · « **Reply #30 on:** January 17, 2003, 11:42:35 AM »

One of the big issues, is public schools in poor, mostly minority inner city areas don't have the funding that the white, wealthy area public schools get. One could argue that minorities deserve special consideration based upon this. I think that's crap, at least partly.

Affirmative action is definetely racism, and should be put down. Solving a race issue by institutiing another is just adding to the problem. But maybe there is something that can help out those that came from economically challenged areas that is based on geography, local economics, maybe even family income. Whatever, so long as it's not based on skin color?

Nash · « **Reply #31 on:** January 17, 2003, 11:42:39 AM »

Affirmative action? I dunno...

But it strikes me as (here it is again) hypocritical for Bush to champion this fight. Do you think he got into Yale because of merit? Unh uh. How then does he defend the institutional favoritism that got him there?

His SAT score was nowhere near the level needed for acceptance at an Ivy League school. It was almost 200 points lower than the average for Yale freshmen (circa 1970). Indeed, it was roughly the same as that for most of the black students who again admission to these schools based on affirmative action.

Then we have the whole whole National Guard... and the lack of actual "guarding" per say....

Looks to me like wealth and priveledge is a form of affirmative action in and of itself.

Yet there is no movement among conservatives to require that the benefactors of family privilege display the same level of merit as anyone else...

Yeah, affirmative action may suck... But I don't think it's Bush's fight.

lazs2 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 17, 2003, 11:53:31 AM »

nash... it could be argued that if some people buy there way into schools then they are of value. The money improves the school and therfore benifiets everyone... much in the same way that athletes "earn" their place in schools. Affirmative action simply subtracts from the system.
lazs

Gunthr · « **Reply #33 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:10:01 PM »

MrLars, I don't disagree that the suburban city of Dearborn just outside of Detroit did practise racism as it attempted to remain all white.

The City of Inkster, next to Dearborn, was predominantly black during the same time frame. In the 60's, overt and covert racism was practised all over the country.

My personal situation in Detroit was the result of a misguided court deciding that because black people had been, in effect, discriminated against in hiring because they were unable to compete in the test scores and other job requirements, that they would now practise racism against poor young Gunthr to make up for it, even though the guy had never discriminated against anybody.

I don't see any theoretical difference between Affirmative Action and Reparations. Whats your take on that MrLars?

midnight Target · « **Reply #34 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:13:51 PM »

Saying that inferior candidates are given entry through AA is a gross oversimplification of the issue. Inferiority based on what? Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased.

Clarence Thomas wouldn't be where he is today without AA. Oops, I'm arguing the wrong point there.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #35 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:16:56 PM »

inferior based on the fact that if they where white men with the exact same qualifications they wouldn't have the job

Nash · « **Reply #36 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:39:24 PM »

Yeah Lazs, that could be argued. It could also be argued that it's tantamount to saying that the privileged have the right ensure that they continue to be the privileged by having access to the best education... earned or not.

Lets say I geeked out and studied real hard and scored super-duper high on my SAT exam, and gained admission to Yale. Do you think I'm going to resent the blacks sitting next to me who scored far lower, any more than I'd resent the white bozos sitting beside me whose only entrance requirement was their daddy's money?

I just find it incredibly ironic that Bush chose the University of Michigan as the place to step into the affirmative action fray. He says their program "rewards prospective students based solely on their race". True enough. But he was rewarded a Yale education based solely on wealth. In neither of these cases is actual bona fide merit involved.

Again - I just don't think it's his fight.

Nash · « **Reply #37 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:49:45 PM »

MT... "Clarence Thomas wouldn't be where he is today without AA.".... is this true?

lazs2 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:07:28 PM »

nash... I believe that the amount of privilidged that get into schools with no academic merit is far below that of even say...athletes. I have no p[roblem with poor people getting into schools. Isimply want them to be qualified. I think that we are hurting ouselves if we don't allow gifted students in. Or, conversly, if we waste space on the usleless who are likely to drop out in any case.

mt... yes... by testing. The testing is suppossed to reflect real life skills. If the persons skills are so different than those of the rest of societies then we are wasting class time on him. An engineer needs engineering skills. Why would a person who couldn't grasp education in 1-12 get anything out of college? Certainly we are not helping ourselves by descriminating against talented whites.
lazs

MrLars · « **Reply #39 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:35:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunthr

I don't see any theoretical difference between Affirmative Action and Reparations. Whats your take on that MrLars?

When some with a priviledged background starts eleminating an avenue for one to ascend to that lofty height when he himself is the product of 'social/economic previldge' where it has been used to circumvent entry requirements in education and militrary service...I have no opinion

Kanth · « **Reply #40 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:51:09 PM »

http://www.affirmativeaction.org/

Quote

Welcome to AffirmativeAction.Org

The American Association for Affirmative Action is the association of professionals managing affirmative action, equal opportunity, diversity and other human resource programs.

Founded in 1974, the American Association for Affirmative Action (AAAA) is dedicated to the advancement of affirmative action, equal opportunity and the elimination of discrimination on the basis of race, gender, ethnic background or any other criterion that deprives people of opportunities to live and work. The organization's dedication is realized in its many activities designed to help Equal Employment Opportunity/Affirmative Action (EEO/AA) professionals be more successful and productive in their careers.

So basically the American Association for affirmative actions says that they don't want 'any' descrimination based on any reason, for example incompetence.

That's reassuring.

I think the move Bush made was the correct one, that doesn't mean it's not just the tip of the iceberg.

As far as it not being his fight, why is it that someone who benefitted wrongly along with many other people from a different form of the same thing cannot change it and make it better?

Ironic it may be, but I want him to fix stuff while he's in office not stand in a corner with his ironic cap on.

Gunthr · « **Reply #41 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:53:43 PM »

Quote

Saying that inferior candidates are given entry through AA is a gross oversimplification of the issue. Inferiority based on what? Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased.

- MT

MT, when you say "Often the testing used to set the qualifications was racist or biased." does that also convey that the rest of the time, the testing was not racist or bias? Would you concur that if the testing was not racist or bias, affirmative action would be wrong?

Consider this. By your logic, poor young Gunthr, because he is a member of a racist society and has benifited from racism(ancestors/slave labor), should have a benifit that he has personally earned witheld from him and given to a member of the minority in question.

Also by your logic, because you have been a member of a racist society, and you have benifitted from racism(ancestors/slave labor), money that you have personally earned may be taken from you, and given to a member of the minority in question. (Reparations)

How do you feel about that?

edit: word may changed to should for clarity.

midnight Target · « **Reply #42 on:** January 17, 2003, 02:38:49 PM »

Reparations and AA are two different animals and I refuse to bite down on that particular piece of stinky bait.

You can't level the playing field simply by casting a magic wand and saying "BIGOTRY IS ENDED". Even if the laws were changed to ensure that all are treated equally, the discrimination of the past will ensure that the power continues to be held by the formerly bigoted majority. Something has to be done to make up for the past.

The sins of the past were horrible, the cure may be painful. Bummer.

Gunthr · « **Reply #43 on:** January 17, 2003, 02:56:28 PM »

I only asked you how you felt about Reparations... you don't have to run so fast or far from the question....

MrLars · « **Reply #44 on:** January 17, 2003, 03:23:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunthr
I only asked you how you felt about Reparations... you don't have to run so fast or far from the question....

I think reperations are stupid and racist...unless I can get me some. j/k

My Irish ancestors came to America in 1848 and were immediatley indentured to pay for passage they'd already paid for on departure. Three of them fought in the Civil War with the Irish Brigade in the 88th New York.