SquadOps Sunday frame 3 - AARs

[Grayarea]

Hi all,

Please post your AARs along with any other comments I am sure you might have.

This frame was somewhat messed up with daylight saving causing problems.

Another issue that is sure to come up is the length of the frame. SquadOps are 2 hours long with no extension. Any planes not RTB'ed at the close of the frame are considered lost in action.

In this instance the Allied CO ordered some of his bomber force to use a route that meant they could not possibly RTB in the frame.

He knew the cost of this action, and it is a CO prerogative to make this kind of decision, if you like it represents a mission that was likely to cause severe casualties.

I think that the ability of the Co to make tactical decisions of this kind helps to keep SquadOps new and interesting.

[JB73]

why then is pyroman going to fix the logs to show they landed?

i have screenshot of it if you need.

[AndyH]

Sorry for complaining about the extension during the event, but I have complained about this before. The TOD rules clearly state that all aircraft still in the air will be considered lost.

If the CO can not plan a route that allows the aircraft to RTB then it should be brought up before the event starts. Please do not change the rules at the last minute, the opposing side's plans are based on the fact that this is a 2 hour event.

We need to stick to the 2 hours, some of us have to work you know :-)

[Vladd]

Re the time limit: I think the practise used in the recent scenario worked pretty well - 2 hours action followed by a 30 minute extension to land planes.

One other suggestion for this particular event in the future: Enemy buff formations even at high altitude would have been clearly visable from the ground throughout much of their route. IRL the LW fighter controllers would have been well aware of their progress even without radar. The fog of war certainly adds a fun element, but to have base flashing fully disabled was a bit too much IMO.

Overall I had a lot of fun though, especially in the final frame. 30K combat against p51s and p47s was quite a change from MA dweebery Was the initial fight against a 190 group directly over the buffs, or were they still some distance away? If the former, cloud  hid them from us very effectively.

Allies for some excellent fights.

[ghostdancer]

Let me clarify something here .. Pyroman and in fact all CMs do not have the ability to fix, edit, or delete logs.

What Pyroman was doing was taking down the names of those still flying so that he can bring up the issue to the Admin CM so that the Admin CM can look things over and decide if he should modify the scoring one way or another.

Setup CMs are only responsible for setting up the arena according to the instructions sent to them by the Admin CM. They also enforce the rules of the scenario and at times make judgement calls on the spot since based on issues during game play.

[JB73]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
Let me clarify something here .. Pyroman and in fact all CMs do not have the ability to fix, edit, or delete logs.

What Pyroman was doing was taking down the names of those still flying so that he can bring up the issue to the Admin CM so that the Admin CM can look things over and decide if he should modify the scoring one way or another.

Setup CMs are only responsible for setting up the arena according to the instructions sent to them by the Admin CM. They also enforce the rules of the scenario and at times make judgement calls on the spot since based on issues during game play.

TY for the explnation Ghst... all i saw was what was typed on blue CM text.

i truly respect you and thank you for all the work in the SEA you have done. <>

[Dinger]

Okay Greyarea, thanks for assuming our route made RTB impossible.
The assigned targets in this frame were A33 and A30.  We were told to take B26s from A52 to hit A33.  B17s were tasked to the closer target, A30.
so our flight was from 3 12 to 17, 10
That's over 350 miles.  The nearest friendly base to A33 is 275 miles away.  625 miles.  We flew 60 miles 135 then 090 to target, and 270 back to the nearest base.  Cruising at 12k, we had 280 mph TAS.  We flew straight to the target and straight under the major furball between allied and axis forces.  We flew straight back.
Even if we had taken off from the very tip of england, there's no way we would have made it to the target and back in the 2 hours.  I don't know whether the CM or the CO is responsible for A52, but even if the CO had the choice of a closer field, the CM had no business allowing bomber ops from a field so far from the target.
The b26 is a fast bomber, but it is not a jet.

I also find it highly unprofessional that someone in your position would immediately assign the blame to a commander making poor decisions.  Yes, I've encountered cases in the past where someone makes bomber routes that do not take into account time considerations.  Yes, the allied commander should have done some timings and realized that this mission design was screwed.  But AFAIK the Allied CO is new to SquadOps, and ultimately, the responsibility for poor design falls not his shoulders.

This is the second week in a row the objectives given to the allies in squadops have had problems.  At least this time I didn't wake up to find that in addition to pointing out an error -- which is his responsibility -- , the CM had presumed but to change the Allied CO's orders -- which is not.  In that case, fortunately, I was able to sort it out without sending spitfires on a deep escort mission.

Finally, I don't like to see CM referees having to face decisions such as this (extend the frame) while the frame is in progress.  But that is why they're there: ultimately, they have to make the thing work.  And contrary to what was claimed today, they should have final say on the rules and the design.  Greyarea set the frame up; Pyroman refereed it.  Pyro can say "I'm not going to do this"; but "Blame Greyarea" or whoever is not an option.

--
I'm not too upset about this.  Personally, I don't expect much, and I don't check the scores.  But I would like to see things like squadops run in a professional manner.

--
oh and vladd, yeah, the B26s wer ein a tight formation in the clouds
we'll get you a screenshot

[ramzey]

hi
AAR first
roster
band
dinger
lucull
krotki
lolo
ramzey

Frame start with 1 hour delay, from reason time change in europe
We flew as order say and straigh painted route. When we enter france we spot layer clouds and we hide inside. At 12k and fly inside 40 miles:). We saw fight far our 6 when high cover was engaged by enemy, but during whole 2,5 hour  flight not saw any cons.
Just before trg we spot secound layer clouds , just over trg. We descending alt and all hit target. Complete flat them /all hangars down, fuels, amno/ Amazing we hit!!!/ after that we head west and fly back.
No losses, trg destroyed , all safe land in England
Ty fighters for keep enemy away from us




ramzey

[ghostdancer]

In regards to their being a time extension in Squad Ops. Every setup CM is allowed to extend the time of a frame or reduce it based on situations that arise in the Squad Ops.

Most of the time what happens is that both sides decide to call it because both are heading home and no longer fighting and there is not enough for another round. So everyone is told to go home and logs close when everyone landed.

There has been cases where logs are left open up to 15 minutes longer than official frame end do to situations in the frame.

Pyroman made the call to have the logs go another 15 minutes. He will bring up the reason why to myself and Grayarea. If Grayarea disagrees then its a simple matter of looking at the raw logs and counting everyone in those last 15 minutes as lost.

Anyone who was able to land in those last 15 minutes was close to their home bases to begin with and not under threat by enemy forces. Pyroman did it as courtesy to those players who had spent hours in the air and were within sight of getting home and landing. As stated they can still be counted as loss if Grayarea decides so.

But to be able to discuss the matter info needs to be recorded and then a decision can be made. If no info recorded sort of hard to discuss.

[AndyH]

Nobody should be blaming anybody, we just need to make sure it does not happen in future. We need to make sure that we are all working to the same rules to make a reasonably even and fun event.

Nobody should be getting too upset about this, this is an improvement process.

[AndyH]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
In regards to their being a time extension in Squad Ops. Every setup CM is allowed to extend the time of a frame or reduce it based on situations that arise in the Squad Ops.
 

If this is so please amend the rules page:

http://events.simladder.com/tod_rules_sat.php

Frames will last 2 hours. After 2 hours logs will be closed and the arena reset. Aircraft will be considered lost if they have not landed and exited

[ViFF]

personnaly I wish these long ranged frames would be extended as necessary.

In this particular  frame, we had B-26s going to no more then 17k at full throttle,  directly from their launching fields to target and back.

it took them almost 3 hours to complete the round trip.

I don't have a problem with that as long as we extend the frame as necessary.

[~Pyroman~]

First off, no one said this was a blaming game.  All I said is that I'm the Setup CM not the Admin CM.  If you have a problem with how it's ran to leave a post on the BBS.  

Yes I did say that Grayarea was the Admin CM.

Now with that being said, I said I was the Setup CM, and for now on I'm only going to say it once.  

People make mistakes, and I hope you guys understand that.  I'm not saying you were unruley in the frame because you weren't but did also didn't let dead dogs lie either.

So, mistakes are going to be made.  DO NOT turn this around like I"m against Grayarea because I"m not.  I just love how people put words in your mouth.  We are a team, we just didn't have the communication this week like we try to have.

Bare with us, I'm new and not use to working with him yet.  It will get better I promise

[ViFF]

Reading GreyArea's post again I would like to say that I strongly disagree with the notion that if aircraft are overdue past the 2 hr frame limit they would be counted as dead.

This for two reasons:

1. Specificaly for this frame, it was impossible. Like I said in my previous post, the 308 Sqn B-26s took a direct route to the target at 17k and at top speed, and still it took them 3 hrs to make the round trip.

2. Limiting us to 2 hour frames on long ranged buff missions forces us to put all the forces on a direct path to the target. With no capability for implementing some deciept tactics, this is like lining us up like sheep into the slaughter house.

What I would suggest is implementing an airborne launch at cruise speed, so we don't lose our formations like we do in the Germany terrain.

In my personal opinion, I don't have a problem with a time limit, but 2 hours is impractical.  I would like to have these events extended to 3 hours, I don't think its too much time.

[ghostdancer]

AndyH,

Fine I will have the rules also publically state that setup CM's have the authority to extend a frame or end a frame earlier based on their judgement and the circumstances/situations within the frame.

Also realize that the arena is not always reset after an event so that the Admin CM can determine BDA afterwards.

I will have Flossy look things over and we will modify the rules to reflect the current reality of the event. Which is to say the rules on guests are outdated, that we now do have a log parser, etc.

However, realize that all setup CMs have to be flexible and make on the spot calls depending on their judgement of the situation at the time. For these calls they have to answer first to the Admin CM, then to me as team Lead.