Author Topic: SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs  (Read 1162 times)

Offline Dinger

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2003, 10:58:39 PM »
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Please not this is the second Squad Ops in a row where a CiC did not bring up what they were thought issues before the actually frame. Please note that all CiCs need to bring up issues when they get the orders.

With all respect,
there were no issues to bring up here.  The Allied CiC saw that he had no way of stopping the enemy's armored thrust, so he committed his units to air power.  The Axis CiC should have realized, as Mr. Fork so elegantly put it:
"You could up your entire force  in tanks and AAA but you would be sitting ducks to air attack".
It looks like the CM was perfectly clear on what the CiC's options were.
The strat choice here was simple: The Allies could not match 11 Tigers;   But the Axis couldn't supply air cover for 11 Tigers, and they got pounded.

There's no problem with commanders' decisions here.  The Axis decision to commit 11 potential pilots to tanks was a not a wise decision, but you can't blame the CO; squadops is a learning experience.  Likewise, you can't blame a CiC for not noticing fundamental flaws in a scenario design.  Scenario design is the CM's territory.
Hopefully, future leaders who experienced Sunday's frame have taken from it a valuable lesson that's remained the same from Afrika Corps to the present: commit to GVs the absolute minimum number of pilots necessary to achieve the objective.  If the orders require "a squad" to be in GVs -- pick the smallest squad on the roster; if the rules require a minimum of one GV to achieve an objective, pick one GV; if the rules are open, select no GVs whatsoever.

There are two reasons for this:
First, every GV you put out there takes away from an aircraft you can field.  Aircraft have higher survivability, higher speed, higher K/D, and higher ground lethality than ground vehicles.
Second, nobody wants to play GVs in a scenario.  I'm sorry if this sounds inflammatory, but it's like I said above: some people may enjoy tank battles, but in a scenario, all it takes is a handful of planes to ruin your day.  In squadops, most of the people are going to be in planes, and the size of squadops battles means that the tanks aren't going to escape notice.
so if you put people in GVs, you're likely to get a lower turnout, and those who do show up won't have much fun.

Yeah, yesterday the Tiger drivers might have had more fun if they had russians in panzers to blow up.  And how much fun would that have been for the russians?

Don't blame this one on the CiC.  The CM's statements were unambiguous.  If the CM said "You must designate at least 6 targets to be blown up in panzers", then the CiC should have contacted the CM with serious problems.

Offline Mister Fork

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2003, 11:12:11 PM »
I'm taking the blame for not having Ramzey send me his orders once written. My bad. Not his.  I would of corrected it if I had remembered.

I ALSO told Ramzey he could use his resources as he saw fit (ie fielded more tanks) and seeing how english isn't his first language, I should of been more careful how I worded my orders.

I wasn't expecting no tanks however and the result was there were 30+ aircraft vs 20+ from the LW. It's just a numbers game.

I'll be more careful this week.

Sling - Ramzey, blame me.
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Offline funkedup

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2003, 11:13:26 PM »
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Originally posted by sling322
Yeah...and I guess we all just fell off the turnip truck yesterday and have never played in a TOD frame before, right?

C'mon FunkedUp....you're smarter than that and I believe the rest of your squad is as well.


FYI I'm not involved in running the squadron.  Ramzey is the CO now.  I read the orders myself after the fact and I agree with his interpretation.

I'm not flying SquadOps and I'm not the sqn leader so I should probably just shut the F up.  But I saw my buddy getting criticized for something that was not his fault so I spoke up.  I said my piece and I'm outta here.  
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 11:21:01 PM by funkedup »

Offline ramzey

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2003, 06:01:57 AM »
@Mr.Fork i not blame u, online u was flexible and i saw that. I appreciate that.

ramzey

Offline ghostdancer

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2003, 07:18:30 AM »
Dinger,

With all due respect this is the second Sunday Squad Ops in a row that has had major complaints after a frame. By both players and CMs. This is also the second one in the row where the players claim the event was flawed.

I am trying to determine where the problems are stemming from. Also I am not shifting the blame to COs. However, things are a two way street and COs should bring up any issues they think will affect the frame before the frame. I have asked for Mister Fork's orders to see if this was the case. From earlier posts it seems to indicate that the Russians knew they should up some armor. Later posts from others and Mister Fork seem to indicate it was not specified. I need to see the orders to determine what was the case. The LW had 1/3rd of there force stuck in Tigers with no action. If they were supposed to be used to bombard a target .. no problem since there job was destroy objects. If they were supposed to have a tank battle .. obviously problem.

I need to review the orders to determine things.

This last thing, plus actions in the last squad ops, and severely low numbers (basically both sides fielding their minimum numbers at the min -2 level) for the past several squad ops has caused us to bring Sunday Squad Ops under review. We have to try to find out what the source of the problems are and see if they are minor and fixable in the short term or have to assess if they are major and if we need to take sunday squad ops off line for an extended time to address and fix whatever is causing the problems.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 09:11:11 AM by ghostdancer »
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Offline Zanth

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2003, 08:50:01 AM »
I enjoyed squad ops sunday.  I think Ramsey did a very good job and made good decisions.

Offline Sancho

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2003, 11:10:21 AM »
Never got any orders for this TOD.  Wasn't sure there was one and I didn't show up.  :(

Offline ghostdancer

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2003, 02:22:03 PM »
I have received the orders that were sent to both sides for this frame and additional correspondence from the COs with their questions to Mister Fork asking for clarification on certain issues.

I am reviewing this information.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
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Offline Cooley

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SquadOps Sunday frame 1 - AARs
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2003, 12:19:51 AM »
Was my first event in AH, new here from a game down the hall

I enjoy participating in events more then anything else!

I was a walk-on and directed to be a tank driver for the AXIS
(BTW,thank you for accepting me as a walk on)

It was actually my first time in a Tiger, and even though there was little defense of Leningrad, I still had fun !
driving over that bridge was awesome!

 Even though the chances of fighting off Tiger tanks with Panzers would be futile, IMO there should have been an attempt to do so.
(if it was writtin in the write up of course, if not disregard)

As we are recreating an historical event, even though the CIC knows what type of resistance he may run into, they should still field the units as the event is writtin,

An example I'll use is.. recently we ran the Yamamoto scenario,
I was CO of AXIS and acted as Yamamoto flyin a betty with Zeke escort from Rabaul to Boaganville, I knew we would be intercepted by P38s, I could have easily changed flight plan to avoid the intercept and made it there safely, I didnt,, and we were intercepted/overwhelmed and i was shot down,,but we all had a blast.

 Often when you recreate historical scenarios, one side is subject to the probability of being overwhelmed or faced with the potential uneven fight

Please know that im not tryin to step on anyones toes or disrespect any of you Vets here, and if it comes across that way, My apologies
I look forward to flying events in the future with you all < S >

Dont flame me to bad plz ;)
Cooleyof 367th