Author Topic: For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)  (Read 10137 times)

Offline Halo

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2003, 08:46:32 PM »
I can straddle the fence on perks in the Main Arena, but I have to question whether perk points need to be imposed in AH2.  

I get the idea only certain equipment and bases will be available (think rolling plane set) as people progress in rank/skill until they conk off or the campaign/scenario concludes.
 
Doesn't that make perk points unnecessary in AH2?
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
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Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2003, 10:46:44 PM »
In AH2, there's gonna be the regular MA as we know, and then the TOD mode, Halo.

 The MA of AH2, most people expect it will be pretty simular to what we have now. Thus, suggested perk agenda is for "AH2: Classic" (MA).

Offline Halo

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2003, 10:28:08 AM »
Ah, that's why I'm confused -- this forum title is Aces High II: Tour of Duty.  I thought everything in it was about only the new Tour of Duty.  

To better pinpoint concerns, recommend the bulletin board add a new forum: Aces High II: Classic.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous

Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2003, 05:35:58 PM »
* Punt *

Offline MANDOBLE

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2003, 06:55:54 PM »
Kweassa, while your list is coherent, we'll have even more spits that way.

Offline MrWimpy

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2003, 07:22:39 PM »
Whatever it is, I'm against it.  As I kept saying since I first commenced it, I'm against it.

With apologies to Groucho Marx.

Actually, I like the idea, a lot!!! :)

Offline SKurj

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2003, 09:05:20 PM »
Mandoble has a point...

Didn't realize it the first time I read this, but Spit9 on down is still free.  Not that I have a prob with them, i just think there is a possibility that this would make spits more common than current. (ok well current as in when I last played a couple months back)



SKurj

Offline mia389

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2003, 09:50:07 PM »
I like the idea I would perk the spit 9 of 3 or 4 though. It would give a guy some value on his life alittle more and less HOs too!!

Offline Kweassa

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The Definitive Explanation on the "BIG FOUR" Phenomenon
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2003, 08:30:38 PM »
Some more thinking, and consideration, about what makes up plane usage as seen now.... This one, was posted in the Perk The Big Four thread in the Gameplay forums.  

 It's an answer to Tilt, as he mentions:

Quote
Remove it and they go to another ride and the effect is unchanged.


 ...


 That is unless one removes(or rather, regulates - "removing" a plane via punitive perk costs, is not the same thing as lightly perking them for regulating them) a total 'section' of certain fighters above certain performance levels, so that the very style of gameplay may change - currently, as I see it, the "MA style" of combat is a result of certain planes being interdependant on each other.

 Planes being interdependant on each other is not a bad thing, but however, when those are the few plane types that are qualified for variety of purposes, being excellent in almost every category, the problem rises that practically other planes are rendered obsolete.

.........

 La-7, P-51D, Typhoon, N1K2, Spit9 - these are all you need right now.

 For jabo and suppression, the P-51Ds and Typhoons carry out the task with more ordnance than most of the jabo planes, far better survivability than most bombers, and then they can also immediately switch to versatile fighter roles after ordnance is dropped.

 Mid to high alt fights, the P-51Ds used en masse takes the cake.

 Low alt engagements and suppression, the La-7 does it all.

 And the backbone of air power, the planes used in the 'grunt' role of air combat, chasing down slow planes or engaging other 'grunts', with high attrition levels - Spit9 and N1K2. These are planes that have exceptional maneuverability and yet, have decent speed(The N1K2 and Spit9 considered slow planes? Probably, to those who regularly use G-10s, D-9s, La-7s and P-51Ds, Typhoons. To the other planes below the "1944" levels, they are fast enough to be a big threat). Of those two, the former is a bit better suited for mid-high alt performance, and the latter can take on a jabo role if required, with four cannons of 900 rounds of ammo.

...

 The combination of the above mentioned 4~5 planes(which, also happen to be the 'big four', except the Typhoon(if one considers jabo purposes, the Typhoon probably joins the 'big four' in usage)), is the exact element of their overusage. The 'big four' are the 'big four', because combination of those four, is the key to winning the land-grab theme surrounding the MA.

 Then what about the superior numbers, alt-monkeying, running at the sight of co-E plane crap that's been going on? Simple.

 Since all of the countries are now using that "Big four Combo" regularly, apparently there's no advantage gained in the combination of other plane types - thus, the advantage is earned by sheer numbers.

 Since the "Big four combo" is so fediddlein' lethal, now, nobody, not even the vets, can be sure that they can meet a plane and win against it quickly in a major battle zone. As soon as you get that one guy, a La-7 comes on you co-alt, a P-51D drops down from high, and the Spits and N1K2s are waiting for you down low!  Either you stick to that "SA" thingy like the ticket to heaven at Armageddon's Day, or you become a victim, and at the same time, the perpetrator of it.

..

 So, what about the other planes? The G-10 and the D-9?

 These are probably the only two planes which can vaguely substitute the above roles that the P-51D and the La-7 plays. However, the huge difference in armament(thanks to that long-range aspect of Hispanos and .50s) makes them crappy substitutes at best, not to mention they are both no match in the multi-purpose category(too limited in jabo role).

 So, basically the G-10 plays as a substitue for the La-7, but due to their insane climb rates, limited ammo and sucky weaponery, and special 'gadgetry' such as the gun pods.. they play a more defensive version of it. The D-9 plays the mid-high alt substitute role for the P-51D. Thus, these become the only two planes really worthy of considering use in the MA environment.

 The P-38L, is a cross-breed between the P-51D and the Typhoon(in efficiency as the MA fighter) - heavier jabo loads, limited "running" capability, but better conventional dogfight capability. These show up when either they are suicidal, or the target field is already suppressed.

...

 So seriously, will they go for another ride when the "big four" is perked? Yes, with simular results. The 'accident' in the MA, where Spits couldn't take off in Bugisles, showed that the Spits move on to N1K2s. People will move to the crappier substitue versions of their former La-7s and P-51Ds, but still, the results won't be too different.

 But when the entire "section" of late war planes are perked?

 Some say diversity cannot be reached by perking or regulating. But they are wrong.

 The perking of the F4U-1C, is a testament to that. The F4U-1C is a four Hispano armed plane - which adds a vast advantage to its A2A capabilities, which carries 6 rockets and 2000lbs ordnance, can take off from a carrier, and also is one of the fastest planes on deck(slow acceleration and limited WEP, but the F4U-1D and the F4U-1C, is faster than the Bf109G-10).

 It was a "one-plane-do-all" fighter.

 When it was perked, what happened? Since no other plane has that kind of capabilities, it's role in the MA is now carried out by three different planes - P-51D, La-7, and the Typhoon! Also, in carrier ops, it's role is split into three by the F4U-1D for jabo, and the F6F-5 and the Seafire for pure A2A suppression. In short, the F4U-1C alone, was doing the job of 6 different fighters in the MA.

 With the perk costs, increased risk, and added correct weight, it is now 6 different planes that carry the job that once, the F4U-1C did alone.

 That explains why we'll never see a single plane doing 20% of all the kills in the MA ever! And that also means that 20% is now not the standard on which 'overusage' should be judged upon. Relative monoploy is what should be considered.

 8 points for the F4U-1C gave way to 6 different fighter types in the MA. Therefore, perking some of the "late war fighter" section, should also be able to give way to other fighters by splitting the role which once one fighter could do alone by itself.

 Perks do increase diversity.

 Regulating the total section of late war fighters, which is consisted of the "Big four" plus its substitutes, will force the overall planeset into an era prior to the emerging of the "Super planes", where realtive performance margins are better balanced. Not to mention that also, the roles formerly carried out by them(which was once carried by the F4U-1C alone) will also split into other plane types - jabo role to the dedicated jabo planes, fighter role to the pure fighter planes

Offline Kweassa

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2003, 09:44:14 PM »
Interestingly, in an attempt to justify my claims on the analysis of the F4U-1C, I took a quick check with AKDejavu's Fighter Stats:

 ...

 In my analysis, the number of Spits and N1K2s remains constant - they are the "backbone" of the air power, equivalnet to the "everyday soldier" or the "grunt" concept. The people using Spit9s and N1K2s always use these planes, and they carry out the largest fights of most gruesome, high attrition level battles in the MA. Majority of these guys fight each other.

 The F4U-1C - I claim that it has split roles into P-51D, La-7, Typhoon, and the F4U-1D, F6F-5, Seafire.

 According to the stats:

Tour11
* Tour 11, marks the absolute peak of the F4U-1C, which has 23% of all the kills. Interstingly, up to this point, the Bf109G-10 carries a relatively high percentage of average 7~8% - equivalent of what the La-7 holds. Also, the combined percentage of the Spit9 and the N1K2 holds average of about 20%, too - with the N1K2 doing 11~12%, and the Spit9 doing 8~9%.

Tour14
* In Tour 14, the La-7 and the Fw190D-9 appears for the very first time, and immediately the usage of the two planes goes over 7%.

Tour18
* In Tour 18, four months after the excitement of the two planes have gone down, this is the first time that the "Big Four" phenomenon shows its face. And from since Tour18, the "monopoly" begins.

 The percentage of the G-10 drops down to 4%, the D-9 about to 5%. The percetage of the La-7 is embedded at about 8%. From this day forward, the G-10 and the D-9 stays near 4~5%, and the La-7 near 8%.

* The tours between 20~25, is a period where the overall percentage of the N1K2, Spit9, La-7 and the P-51D holds tight at 40%. The main changes are between those four planes - the N1K2 simmers down, and the P-51D usage rises up. Spit9 stays constant near 9~10%, and the La-7 constant at about 8~9%.

* From Tour 29, the Typhoon rises to the 5th place, with about 5% average up to now. This, is the point where current style of gameplay is finally set. The monopoly of the four planes which achieve the 40% of the kills, plus the Typhoon in the 5th place, as the most used jabo plane of them all. With the "big FIVE", 45% of the kills are achieved.

 ......

 My analysis is as follows:

1) The stats prior to Tour14 indicates the truth in the "substitute" aspect of the La-7-Bf109G-10. Before the La-7 was here, The F4U-1C was doing almost everything, with a large section of the people resorting to the N1K2s and the Spitfires. P-51Ds always remain constant at about 10%. Before Tour14, the skies were full of Chogs, Spits and N1K2s. The 10% of other people flew P-51Ds simular in the fashion now. On the low alt fights, the Bf109G-10 was doing what the La-7 was doing, but it wasn't as pronounced due to the vast numbers of Spitfires, N1K2s and F4U-1Cs.

2) Tour18, four months after the La-7 and the Fw190D-9, the Chog crowd begins to disappear. Parts of them move to form the new La-7 crowd. The "LW" crowd, from this point on, remains constant at 7~8% - two planes of the entire LW plane set, are the only planes that make up that 8% of total kills achieved. The Spit9-N1K2 crowd still remains constant.

 The D-hog has a momentray surge in usage - no doubt that another part of the C-hog crowd, were in the F4U-1D as a substitute for their C-hog. This tendency, quickly dies off after another few months.

 Slowly, between Tour18 and Tour29, part of the C-hog crowd are fully assimilated in the La-7s.

3) Tour29, marks the beginning of what is current. Typhoons are used en masse as suicidal jabos. Fuel porking and large scale jabo raids are visible. New crowds gather to AH.

 The rise of F6F-5 hellcat is also visible - the preference for the carrier plane, has shifted from the C-hog to the F6F-5. The N1K2 crowd drops, while the La-7 crowd begins to rise even more.

4) By Tour35, the Spit and the P-51D crowd still stay constant. However, the relative difference between the N1K2 and the La-7 has reversed - now, the La-7 is doing 9~10% of the kills, and the N1K2, which previously was doing about 12~13%, drops down to about 7%.

 This, is the point where people gave up on trying other planes to chase La-7s. N1K2 crowd, moves on to form the hordes of La-7s. This explains the relatively low skill levels of the La-7s - few tours back, they were all flying N1K2s!!

5) Tour38 - The Big Four remain big four, Typhoon is the undisputed jabo plane, with 5th place in kills. The LW crowd mostly just gives up on the Bf109G-10(drops down to 3%) , and moves to the Fw190D-9(rises to 4~5%). In my view, parts of the Bf109G-10 pilots gave it up, and moved to the La-7s or P-51Ds, and the Fw190D-9s.

6) Thus, the stats suggest that Spitfire9 and P-51D is always constant at 10%. Karnak once noted that the P-51D is over 10%, and this hasn't happened recently and it's a sad thing.

 But he's wrong. The Spit9s and P-51Ds were always at 10%.

7) Large part of the  former C-hog crowd, first moved to the N1K2, La-7 and the D-hog. The dedicated hog flyers were experimenting with the D-hog, and the average "dweeb" who flew F4U-1Cs because they were the best, moved to the planes they thought was next best - N1K2 and the La-7.

 Then, the D-hog crowd dispersed, and went to the Typhoon. Former Chog crowd who tried out N1K2s, saw that it was too slow, especially against the new tendencies of super fast planes - P-51D, Fw190D-9, La-7.. so they moved to the La-7.

8) Average carrier pilots, now has no other option than the F6F-5, since the F4U-1D is a hard plane to manage.

 Thus, as a result, the former C-hog crowd, is now scattered into the La-7 and the Typhoon, and the for carrier missions F6F-5 and the Seafire. La-7 + Typhoon + Seafire + F6F-5 = 22.21%. The former role of the C-hog, with 8 perks, is now divided into these four planes!

9) Simpy put, the perk on the F4U-1C split it's role to two fighters - Typhoon and the La-7. Cross breed the Typhoon and the La-7 and what do you get?

a) La-7 and Typhoon, is a very fast plane on deck
b) Both La-7 and the Typhoon is a free plane
c) Typh with four Hispanos
d) Typh with 2k ordnance
e) Lots of cannon ammo

Fast plane + free + four hispanos + heavy ordnance + cannons

That's a C-hog.

 Planes that resemble certain aspects of the Chog, became preferable. There are other planes which match "fast on deck" and "free" category. But the La-7, of all those others, is naturally the only choice. The "cannon" category was the reason behind the momentary increase in the N1K2s after the Chog was perked. But N1K2s, compared to the La-7s, were too damn slow.

10) Seafire and the F6F-5 is also an interesting case. In theory, F4U-1D and the F4U-1C is only different in the armament. But strangely, when the F4U-1C was perked, people tried moving to the D-hog, but they gave that up soon. They started flying Seafires and Hellcats. D-hog, so much simular to the F4U-1C than any other plane, was neglected totally.

 This means:

a) the La-7 is that much more preferable and effective for the former C-hog crowd.

b) Hispanos, mean that much in AH. To hell with all other simualrities - when the gun sucks, it's not a worthy substitue. They moved to the La-7, with sucky guns but super performance enough to cover that disadvantage, or moved to the same quad-hispano plane - Typhoon.

c) The Hellcat is now the preferred carrier jabo - somewhat like a Spit9 with heavy bombs.

d) of course, Hellcats can't really turn with N1K2s and Spit9s - they are like Spit9s only against other planes. So, when fighting N1K2s and real Spits, the Seafire is used. It's got Hispanos, too.
 
...


 Thus, in conclusion, the perks split the monopolistic 23% Chog usage into bits.
 
 Now, we need perks to split those 7~10% planes into 3~5%. However, when other late war planes remain unperked, there just will be another 10% planes arising.

 Thus, perking the late war performers, and forcing them into the 1943 era, should be considered.

 Whether the 1943 version of the "Big Four" will be a shadow of the late war "Big Fours", will remain something to be seen.

Offline oboe

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2003, 12:23:57 PM »
This would be a very interesting and worthwhile experiment I think.   Problems with leaving the Spit IX unperked would surface quickly, but I'm sure it could also be adjusted.     It would be so nice to see some variety in the MA!

Offline SFCHONDO

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2003, 04:47:14 PM »
Fantastic Idea, I would perk the LA7, NIK2, and spit9 atleast to 8 perks. It really doesn't take that long to gather perk points. Hec, to me they should delete your perk points after a certian period. Be it every campian, every 2 months or 3 months. But I'm sure that alot would really whine about that idea....LOL...I do like the idea of perking those other planes tho. as I said before I would raise the LA7, NIK2, and Spit9 to 8 perkies.
        HONDO
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Offline clouds

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2003, 02:01:07 AM »
It seems to me the Perked plane was an infamous invention due some planes are under under used letting these planes almost out of the arenas.

Do you want a more realistic situation ?

Then make the planeset related to the war period.

If you figure out the entire war will last in a month or two (1940 to 1945), change dinamically the planeset during this period (withouth perks obviously) not permitting Zekes vs Me262 like now it is. (warbirds teach something yet)

Obviously this means a more complete planeset.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2003, 02:03:45 AM by clouds »

Offline MrWimpy

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2003, 02:07:17 AM »
Better yet, how about breaking up the planeset by country.  Sort of ala Fighter Ace, (Can I say that here?), where to fly say a P51, you have to fly for USA.  Or to fly a Spit, you have to fly for Britain, and so on.

Nah, no one would want to do that....would they???

Offline clouds

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2003, 04:08:09 AM »
Good this thing too.

Anyway Warbirds teach something in this case too.