Author Topic: Ki-61 vs Spit IX  (Read 2258 times)

Offline Kekule

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« on: August 03, 2003, 02:46:42 AM »
Greetings all

WBer here, who is new to AH since the big "duel".

I've had my butt handed to me in Ki-61 vs Spit IX. The spit can out climb, out run, and, apparently, out turn the Ki-61.  I can understand the out climb and out run, but out turn?

I'd like to see data on this matchup, turn rates in particular, I can not seem to find this set of numbers in my (limited) number of IJAAF books.

Any help would be appreciated!

(P.S. not saying it is wrong that spit IX can out turn Ki-61, just have not seen any data that shows one way or the other... if it jives with "real life" numbers, then it is no wonder why there are so many spit dweebs. :p)

Kekule
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2003, 03:58:07 AM »
Hehe a P-38L in here can out turn a Ki-61 too.


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Offline Shane

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2003, 05:56:12 AM »
the tony *can* outturn a spit until it gets vertical then the tony's underpowered airframe just butterflys and the spit has the power to go up and come back down for the shot. i'd say it kind of boils down to the pilot for the first few turns.

the ki-61 is a nice ride and goes downhill very well, but top-end and "power" is somewhat lacking.  plus the guns are hard to hit with (but they do damage) and the cannon (120 rds per gun*2) has the fastest ROF of all ah cannons from what i read.
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Offline _Schadenfreude_

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Re: Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2003, 06:09:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kekule
Greetings all

WBer here, who is new to AH since the big "duel".

I've had my butt handed to me in Ki-61 vs Spit IX. The spit can out climb, out run, and, apparently, out turn the Ki-61.  I can understand the out climb and out run, but out turn?

I'd like to see data on this matchup, turn rates in particular, I can not seem to find this set of numbers in my (limited) number of IJAAF books.

Any help would be appreciated!

(P.S. not saying it is wrong that spit IX can out turn Ki-61, just have not seen any data that shows one way or the other... if it jives with "real life" numbers, then it is no wonder why there are so many spit dweebs. :p)

Kekule
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Offline nopoop

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2003, 10:43:30 AM »
Overview from Soda's pages..

A rare aircraft to see in general play, the Ki-61 doesn't really have any type of consistent following.  Nothing really stands out in terms of aircraft performance though so that is probably why it is the least common IJN plane to see.  The lack of any one positive attribute is also probably the reason the Ki-61 remains a little obscure, but possibly it could also be a bit of a hidden treasure.  The Ki-61 does have a couple of things going for it overall in high speed handling, stability and firepower, which I believe a lot of people don't realize.

 
 
Ki-61-I-KAIc

Engine Performance

The Ki-61 is a low-medium altitude fighter and the engine performs best below 15K.  Cruise speed at sea-level is only 305mph (313mph with WEP), increasing by a linear rate ( increasing by about 3.5mph/1,000ft of altitude gain) up to a maximum of 357mph at 14.5K.  WEP adds about 8mph at most altitudes up to 14K.   Speed obviously is not much of an asset and a bit of a liability to the Ki-61.   Climb rate is also pretty poor, 2,900ft/minute at sea-level, decreasing sharply when over 13K.  Acceleration tends to be equally, or more, disappointing and the Ki-61 tends to feel quick sluggish, even in a dive.  Fuel range is 37 minutes on internal with the option to extend that by 26 minutes with a pair of drop tanks.   Releasing a drop tank immediately and only packing one is often a good plan to extend range and not hurt cruise performance too much, although be sure to drop your other tank and adjust your trim before entering battle.

Firepower

Firepower on the Ki-61 is strong, with a pair of wing mounted 12.7mm machineguns and a set of twin 20mm cowl mounted cannons.  This is opposite to the layout of most packages and is one of the strongest assets of the Ki-61.   The important cannons, being mounted near the centerline, don't have convergence problems at any range though the ballistics tend to be a little different and take some time to get used to.  The wing mounted machineguns offer a decent secondary weapon.   Ammunition provided includes 250 rounds/gun for the 12.7mm and 120 rounds/gun for the 20mm cannons.  This is not overwhelming but sufficient and about average.   Snapshots, deflection, and crossing shots are all pretty acceptable though you need to ration your ammunition a bit.  Unusually, since the cannons are cowl mounted, the Head-On of the Ki-61 is quite dangerous.  Most planes have wing mounted cannons so the true firepower in a Head-On is likely to only be effective at closer ranges, while in the Ki-61 the cannons fire almost in parallel and thus if you get a feel for the cannons you can fire at longer ranges.  I wouldn't recommend taking Head-Ons in the Ki-61 though, it is not a very tough plane and tends to take damage poorly.

Maneuverability

Maneuverability in the Ki-61 is not fantastic.  The roll rate is very nice at almost any speed, and the turn rate is decent down to 200mph but not slower.  The plane really seems to struggle at low or very high speeds for turn rate.  At low speeds (200mph) it tends to become very heavy and have problems maintaining a good turn rate, though this is likely because of the lack of horsepower and about average weight (~7,600lbs).  Sustained turn-fights are not terribly good.   At high speeds (450mph+), the plane handles about average and really doesn't stand out.  Top speed in a dive is about 500mph since the plane becomes quite heavy above this speed and difficult to control.  By 550mph handling is poor and by 575mph the Ki-61 is almost unrecoverable.  Roll rate is very good though, right up to the unrecoverable point.

Flying the Ki-61

The Ki-61 is really a BnZ'r that should leave the fight early if things appear to not be going it's way.  It has such poor acceleration and climb that any sort of energy fight is unlikely to be successful.  An average turn-rate at low speeds spells trouble against any of the advanced turners (Spit or N1K).   The best speeds to fight are between 300 and 500mph.  The cannons and heavy machineguns should provide a good snapshot capability for knocking out enemy planes with only quick bursts.  Enter the fight slightly above the crowd and make diving passes on opponents.  Don't get into chasing people as most will be able to easily out-distance you and it might draw you away from friendly help.  You are likely to be faced with a number of opponents who can turn about the same or better than you, have equal or better speed, or both.  Thus the basic requirement for an altitude and energy advantage to begin with.  Look to pick off one plane at a time, then re-establish your energy, and go after another.

Defensively, the Ki-61 can be a slippery target and with the good roll rate you may be able to force overshoots.  You will typically have to trade altitude for speed so you can defend but don't give up altitude too quickly.   If you sink all the way to sea-level you are going to be at your worst performance altitude for top speed and have little in the way of defensively options. Use scissors to get people out-infront of you since the Ki-61 tends to roll well and turn at least average, good attributes for scissors.  If you manage to create an overshoot you have enough firepower to finish the job quickly.  Try and extend your fight if defensive and drag enemy planes towards friendly support if you can.  Speed is key, keep it as high as you can maintain since that buys you time and makes you a tougher target.

Fighting the Ki-61

The Ki-61 can be very dangerous since it has more than enough firepower to knock you out quickly.  They tend to arrive at medium altitudes and will be looking for lower opponents.  One key can be to make yourself an unattractive opponent by staying out of diving range of the Ki-61, either through horizontal or vertical separation.  A good Ki driver is not likely to squander a whole lot of altitude in order to get only 1 kill.  A poor one may, but you can use that to your advantage too.

Offensively, drive the Ki low and try to keep him from building any energy back.  The Ki really struggles to build energy since it is such a poor climber and accelerator.  That means that constant pressure will require the Ki to either lose speed, or trade off altitude to maintain speed.  The Ki also gets worse and worse as it gets lower and usually can't survive very long at sea-level.   Look to land hits whenever possible, even if small calibre, since the Ki is not very tough and seems to take engine damage easily.  BnZ from above and there is little chance the Ki can come up after you and will likely be driven down after each pass.   Slashing attacks can also be very successful although you need to worry about the Ki turning to face you and trying to Head-On attack you.  Don't accept Head-On attacks from Ki's, it's just too dangerous.

Defensively, try and simply speed away.  Most aircraft hold a serious speed advantage against an Ki-61 so simply try and extend away.  If you have altitude and a Ki above you, enter a shallow dive to build up speed.  If the Ki dives on you, use that speed to defeat his guns pass and then continue to extend away from him.  If you manage to avoid only 1-2 passes you have likely drained a lot of his energy reserves and may have build up more separation than he can close.  The Ki is so slow that it should not be too difficult to escape unless you are also in a slow plane.  Don't let the Ki get good quality close in shots, or fly in straight lines away from one thinking you are outside of cannon range.  Ki's tend to be pretty desperate and will take shots at almost any range or angle where there is even the slightest hope of success.

Shanes evaluation is spot on. There IS a small contingent of 61 pilots here that are quite dangerous, tho it is uncommon to see one.

Have you tried the zero's yet ??

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« Last Edit: August 03, 2003, 11:03:29 AM by nopoop »
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Offline Kekule

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2003, 01:58:53 PM »
Quote
Nothing really stands out in terms of aircraft performance though so that is probably why it is the least common IJN plane to see.
*sigh*  I am a nit picker, and I'll always point this out...

The Ki-61 is not an IJN aircraft. Kinda like saying the P-51 is a USN fighter. :eek:

As far as turning ability, I only have WB to compare this with (as if either WB or AH has the FMs spot on. ;) )

The WB Ki-61 is a different model, being the Ki-61-Ib.  The KAIc does take a performance hit due the cannons and different wing structure (strengthened to be able to carry bombs, etc.)

In WB, the Ib can out turn the Spit IX.

Here is a wing loading comparison between the Ib and KAIc:

Ki-61-Ib:   147.5 kg/m^2

Ki-61-KAIc: 173.5 kg/m^2

Though wing loading is not the end-all data point for turning ability, the difference between the two 61 models is significant.  And so it seems reasonable (maybe hehe) that the Spit IX can out manuever the Ki-61-KAIc in AH.  I'll still hunt around for more performance numbers.  Some of the books I have are written in Kanji, but the pictures are pretty. :)

With more Ki-61 stick time, I am hoping to be able to smack down spit IXs on a regular basis.  DTAS!

Kekule
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2003, 04:43:29 PM »
There are some inaccuracies in the Ki61 modeling in AH, like how in AH you can turn to the right easily at high speed.  In real life, the Tony had a tough time turning to the right at high speed, that's why it was recommended to US pilots to use that in escaping from the Tony if necessary.  This is something I haven't seen effect the Ki61 in AH.  

Here's a section on the Ki-61 written by Maj. Thomas McGuire on how to escape from a Tony.

Quote

An in-line fighter like our P-40’s the TONY is not an altitude fighter but makes up for this by being faster than the ZEKE in level flight and extremely fast in a dive. A successful evasive tactic against this plane is, if in a dive, to make a diving turn to the right. At high
speeds the TONY handles very poorly to the right and the Japanese pilot has trouble turning in that direction. If you are pursued from the rear and on the level, a very high-speed, shallow climb will keep you out of the range and eventually you will draw way.

One pilot found out about this the hard way. He was returning from a strike at Wewak when he was jumped by three TONYS. He
was at 20,000 feet at the time and went into a shallow dive which ended up on the dock one hundred miles farther south, with the TONYS right behind him. Forced to alter his tactics, the pilot began a high-speed, shallow climb and soon lost them. His was the original experience of this sort with the TONY and his pioneerings saved many from falling into the same error.

If you are on the deck, a very sharp turn to the right at high-speed, may do as an emergency maneuver, but it is definitely a last resort and at best will only keep the enemy pilot from holding his lead on you.



SOURCE



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« Last Edit: August 03, 2003, 05:07:10 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Montezuma

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2003, 10:48:34 PM »
When the Tony stalls, it ALWAYS wants to roll left.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2003, 11:31:25 PM »
Wasn't that a characteristic of all Japanese planes, or any plane for that matter with torque to the left?

I wonder how just how bad the torque was in Japanese planes.  McGuire also wrote a section in his manual on the tactics of Japanese pilots and he said that almost all Japanese pilots faced would always break to the left.  I wonder if this was because the torque was so bad that it made breaking to the right difficult.

Another reason why I fly the EZ-mode, no torque P-38L.


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Offline Karnak

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2003, 11:37:52 PM »
My first kill in the Ki-61 was a Spitfire Mk IX.

I remember some verticle in there, forcing him to blow his shot and then capitalizing on it.

Wish I could be more specific.
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Offline gofaster

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2003, 09:31:37 AM »
Spitfire IX pilots are usually predictable.  When they see something coming up behind them, they immediately go into a high vertical loop pulling back on the stick as much as possible.  This makes it very easy to anticipate their maneuver and shoot them down, particularly in a Ki-61.  You simply make a pass but plan your trajectory to pass on top of them and wait for the Spitfire to pull up into your gunsights.  Use your high ROF to do a snapshot, hopefully on the engine or cockpit area.  The cannons are in the nose, so convergence isn't an issue.

Once you see him fly above your gunsight, go into a lag turn loop but level at the top of your loop.  The Spit will most likely start his downward turn and try to loop back up.  If you go nose-down, there's a very likely possibility that you'll pack more speed than him and overshoot the loop.  As you both keep looping, the Spit will get the advantage.  So, you make one pass, hit the Spit as it pulls up, then you go up, level, and wait at the top for the Spit to come up to you where he's going slower as he gets closer to you.

If he doesn't pull back up, just stay on top of him and plan your next run.  Think of the Ki-61 as a bobsled with guns.  It runs very well but only downhill.

Offline milnko

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2003, 10:00:02 AM »
Back in Tour 39 I played around with the KI.61 a bit and managed a 2.6 K/D ratio by getting 21 kills and dying 8 times.

It's kinda my "go to" plane when I get tired of dyin' in the FW.190A5.

If I can get kills with the KI.61 then it must be a dweebery plane :D

Offline humble

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2003, 01:49:07 PM »
Tony has no real advantage to exploit vs the Spit IX. Handling is equal at best (I'd give edge to the spit) and the Spit has significant climb/acceleration advantage. That being said the only real advantage you have is your disadvantage you bleed e faster. If in pursuit I've found getting off gas can give me a shot early if spitty isnt careful...if I'm on defensive a chop and hard turn can set up a scissor opportunity. If you have some alt you can play a bit since you can dive to reload E...but once you get down to the deck the spitty will own you. All in all not a good match up for the Tony.

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Offline Mathman

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2003, 02:05:51 PM »
I like the Tony.  Its a fun plane shoot down.  Almost as much as the 2 Zekes, the Val and Kate.

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Offline Kekule

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Ki-61 vs Spit IX
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2003, 02:22:35 PM »
^^

The Macho Man shows up, one for every thread. :)  Sounds like you don't look for much of a challenge (Vals and Kates? lol), but at least you don't fly a spit. :cool:

For everyone else, thanks for the discussion.  I'm starting to get the hang of the FM a bit.  

ack-ack, I prefer to start my break turns to the right (in Ki-61), assuming I have enough E.

Kekule
WB: 18th Sentai