Author Topic: A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door  (Read 3999 times)

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2003, 11:51:59 AM »
Muckmaw you're quite right, removing Saddam was probably the only positive side effect in this tragedy. Things are not good in Iraq, however. The country is still in a state of chaos and from the looks of it seems that it'll be a long time before people can actually continue their normal lives down there.

Offline muckmaw

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3874
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2003, 12:02:56 PM »
But is it better in Iraq now, or worse?

That's the real question we have to ask ourselves.

My opinion is I'd rather live in abject poverty, devoid of creature comforts, than to wonder when an agent of the government was going to knock on my door and pluck my daughter's eye out for my behavior.

That's just my opinion, offered 10,000 miles away from Iraq,

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2003, 12:03:21 PM »
Siaf__csf, stop listening to al jeezera, the country is not in chaos.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2003, 12:04:41 PM »
Most true historians wait more than four months before making such declarative statements.

You know, that "historical perspective" thing.

Now, how big a "rolleyes" smilie can one find on the net?

CNN says

"Since the war in Iraq began in March, 301 U.S. forces have died -- 192 from hostile fire, 109 from non-hostile circumstances."

So, we've been disasterously defeated right?

Debate the reasons for going; fine. I'm still needing the proof of the WMD myself.

But paint the occupation, removal of the regime and the ongoing process of rebuilding an Iraq that will eventually be governed by an ELECTED leadership rather than a family-run dictatorship as a failure after less than six months because we lost 192 Americans to hostile fire? You're blinded by either hatred or envy or maybe both.

The true message? CNN again:

"Also on Thursday, a U.S. Army 4th Infantry Division soldier was electrocuted as he hung power lines across a highway northwest of Baghdad, south of Ad Dujal, according to the Coalition Press Information Center."

For the Biblical crowd: "Greater love hath no man than this,
that a man lay down his life for his friends."

To me, the message is Americans died, are dying and are willing to die to help another people live free and better lives.

And there's others who will do so as well. British, Aussies, Poles, Ukrainians, Spaniards, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, Latvians, Slovakians and Lithuanians all were there at the beginning, have come since the end or are on the way. I probably missed a few, too. Apologies.

So a salute to them. And a pointed ignoring of those that just want to sit on their rears, complain and snipe at the "doers".

For the Zen crowd: Who will do the hard things? Those who can.

Be pretty interesting to have an accurate count on those the Hussein regime murdered on a monthly average basis and compare it to the number of Iraqis dying since the "end of hostilities" while in Coalition custody or accidentally when still hostile Iraqis attack Coalition forces.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 12:08:27 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12768
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2003, 12:10:02 PM »
Well said Toad.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2003, 12:19:07 PM »
And from ABC News:
Quote

Across Iraq, that's been the story of rebuilding so far, small steps often overshadowed here by what still needs to be done.

Water is dirtier and less reliable than before the war in 12 of Iraq's 27 major cities, including Baghdad, Najaf and Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit.

Power production is now 72 percent of the prewar peak. Some cities in the south, including Basra and Nasiriyah, have more power now, but Baghdad, where a third of the Iraqi population lives, still suffers regular outages. Before the war, Saddam's regime would often take power from the Shiite-dominated south to fuel the capital's power needs.

Oil exports are now up to 55 percent of the prewar production, but today, the pipeline to Turkey, a key foreign market for Iraqi crude, was set ablaze for the second time this month. U.S. officials believe Saddam loyalists or foreign terrorists are behind the attacks.

The U.S. civilian authority here says part of the challenge is restoring services and infrastructure damaged not just by war and looting, but by years of disrepair and neglect under Saddam.

The U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority says the health-care budget for the final six months of this year is $210 million, compared to $16 million in the final six months of Saddam's regime.

The CPA announced this week that, partly due to U.S. spending, all 240 Iraqi hospitals have reopened. Still, many women here are so worried about crime that they're afraid to leave their homes to see their doctors. A recent U.N. report found many women have been cut off from health care.


This is datelined August 27th. End of hostilities about 4 months prior.

Yes, still much to be done. But an AMAZING amount has been done in four months and the very painful 87 Billion the US people are going to pay is going to accomplish even more.

Argue that the money should be spent in other ways. Argue that WMD hasn't been proven yet. I'd agree with some or all.

But argue that this is, has been and will be a failure in improving the life of the Iraqi people?

Sorry. I'm not convinced and it's CERTAINLY way to early to make that call.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Monk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2003, 12:20:48 PM »
Toad, you ever think about  running for office.

Nicely said.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2003, 12:35:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Monk
Toad, you ever think about  running for office.

Nicely said.


Nah. Unfortunately my parents were married when they had their children, so I'm ineligible.

;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline muckmaw

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3874
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2003, 12:37:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Monk
Toad, you ever think about  running for office.

Nicely said.


Never happen.

He makes too much sense, and if his backround check will reveal he was part of the 13th TAS.;)

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2003, 12:45:47 PM »
John9001: Interesting statement. How did you gather that in Florida?

Not watching the news maybe?

Just a hint: Al-Jazeera doesn't show down where I live. Well, unless you want to see it on satellite.

To Toad: You can try to rationalise it all you like. If you'd be in the dead soldiers place or it would be your son dying there, would you still think the same?

Time will tell what were the true reasons for going there, and the price your country will have to pay for doing so.

The tricky thing is, it's not only Iraq. The conflict created instability and more hatred in the mid-east area.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 12:49:10 PM by Siaf__csf »

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2003, 12:53:14 PM »
Quote
By choosing to focus only on the WMD, the current administration set themselves up for failure, and consquently, sharp criticism.


Thats not true at all, there were many stated reasons for the invasion - I wont argue wirh you any more in this thread as your absolute refusal to acknowlege the other stated war issues to support your weak biased argument makes it pointless.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 01:31:38 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2003, 01:19:33 PM »
All this is getting really old.

Saddam Hussein was one of the most brutal insane dictators the world has seen, given time and resources he would have been a new Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or Hitler or whatever.

He is now removed from power.

This fact ALONE makes the war against Iraq worth it.

WMDs? Everyone knows they were there. Even the rabid anti-US euros. Deep down they KNOW that those WMD's existed. What happened to them? I dunno, nor do I really care as long as they are outside the reach of terrorists and dictators.

The problem is that the anti-US euros think this is a good opportunity to make fun of/bash/critizise/whatever the US. "So were are the wmds". Same with the anti-US americans (you know who you are). They see this as an excellent opportunity to take a stab at the president.

Focus gentlemen. Step up from the trenchlines and hold the flames for just one second.

Saddam Hussein was one of the most brutal insane dictators the world has seen, given time and resources he would have been a new Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or Hitler or whatever.

He is now removed from power.

Offline -dead-

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1102
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2003, 01:19:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
And from ABC News:

The U.S. civilian authority here says part of the challenge is restoring services and infrastructure damaged not just by war and looting, but by years of disrepair and neglect under Saddam.

The U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority says the health-care budget for the final six months of this year is $210 million, compared to $16 million in the final six months of Saddam's regime.


Yes, still much to be done. But an AMAZING amount has been done in four months and the very painful 87 Billion the US people are going to pay is going to accomplish even more.

Argue that the money should be spent in other ways. Argue that WMD hasn't been proven yet. I'd agree with some or all.

But argue that this is, has been and will be a failure in improving the life of the Iraqi people?

Sorry. I'm not convinced and it's CERTAINLY way to early to make that call.
Aww come on that's fairly sad and obvious propaganda at best "damaged ... by years of disrepair and neglect under Saddam" yeah right - that would have nothing to do with the US led UN sanctions, it would all be because Hussein was neglecting it because he was a bad man.
(Question: who built the infrastructure stuff in the first place? Was it a. Hussein or b. the US - answers on a postcard please).

And "compared to $16 million in the final six months of Saddam's regime" yeah, that wouldn't have anything to do with sanctions either of course. Just because Iraq was only allowed money enough under the food-for-oil program for $25 per Iraqi per year doesn't mean the health budget should go down. :rolleyes:  

To be fair - it is a start - but not much of a start. Maybe not having the sanctions in the first place might have been a better start - but that assumes that this was about the Iraqi people and not about the oil. And I don't buy that for a minute. If it was about the Iraqi people - why not do it back in the 1980s?
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2003, 01:27:42 PM »
It's amazing how -dead- blames the poor living standards of the Iraqi people on the USA and not on Saddam Husseins disasterous international policies and willful cruelty against his people.

Offline Krusher

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
A civil Iraq discussion thread: please leave your hyperbole at the door
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2003, 01:44:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
It's amazing how -dead- blames the poor living standards of the Iraqi people on the USA and not on Saddam Husseins disasterous international policies and willful cruelty against his people.


The fact that the US wanted the sanctions dropped after the war but some security council members said no kinda voids his "US led UN sanctions" statement