Originally posted by GScholz
These are significant numbers Widewing, and considering that every plane in the "top five" with the possible exception of the Typhoon out accelerates the F6F in level flight the F6F would be a death-trap at 20K facing any of these planes.
Somehow you seem to think that absolute maximums are especially significant. Perhaps they are for some people, but generally speaking it matters little to me if the enemy is in a 109G-10 or A6M2. Either way, I will not allow him to use his on paper advantages.
Sustained climb is useful for avoiding a fight, it means little if you're already engaged. Going vertical with a Co-E Hellcat isn't the best choice, simply because for the first 2-3k, the Hellcat's superior zoom (momentum) means even the G-10 will initially lose ground. It will be dead long before sustained climb is a factor.
Understanding momentum and its importance to energy convergence is valuable. Dive acceleration is also important. A fighter that might have only average acceleration in level flight, just might be a monster in a dive. I've tested the F6F-6 against the Tempest and La-7 offline for dive acceleration, doing the same test described below. Neither of those can accelerate from 200 to 450 mph in a dive as fast as the F6F.
I posted the following elsewhere on this BBS two days ago:
Early this tour I was flying a sortie in the Havoc near a fairly large furball. It was nearly dark and I was just below 8k (ground elevation was around 2K). I spot a 109 heading my way, about 1k higher. I was slightly nose-up when we passed on the merge, speed around 300 mph. We both reversed, but I got around much faster and the 109 went nose-low to avoid the coming deflection shot. I turned onto his 6 about 1.1k behind, accelerating rapidly nose-down. I had 425 mph in a heartbeat. Clearly surprised to see my A-20 actually closing, the 109 did what most of them do, he went vertical. So did I. Still the range came down. I was at just 700 yards back when he pulled thru and headed down again. It's here that I can finally identify the 109 as a G-10. As before, I followed, and once again he could not open the gap. Up he goes into a loop, the big Havoc eating distance and getting ever closer. This time he stays in the dive longer. I ease into a far less steep dive headed for where I figure he'll be when he finally pulls out. Rolling inverted I watch him as he eases out and runs along just above the ground. The angle of my dive was just about perfect and he crosses under my nose at 300 yards. One short burst pulverizes the 109. I did some simple off-line testing of the A-20's dive acceleration and zoom climb abilities. My criteria was this; climb to 15k, level at 200 mph. Go to full throttle while rolling inverted, pull through into vertical dive (a simple spit-S). Record the time required to get to 450 mph. This not only gauges dive acceleration but initial roll rate as well. Go throttle-up and begin roll when clock starts. I tested the La-7, Bf 109G-10, P-51D, Fw 190D-9, P-47D-30 and Tempest. Of these, the Tempest was the fastest by a very small margin, followed by the P-47D-30 and La-7 neck and neck. The other three were only fractions of a second behind. There is not enough difference to change the outcome should any one of them be chasing the any other of the group and already be in gun range. That done, I tried the A-20. Guess what? Despite its poor rate of roll, it beat all the fighters to 450 mph, by more than the entire spread between the whole group. As some have discovered to their great shock, you cannot escape out of gun range by diving from the A-20. It will run you down and kill you before you can generate enough speed to force the A-20 to back off. Let me repeat that, because I've heard a lot of whining and accusations of cheating over channel 1; It will run you down and kill you before you can generate enough speed to force the A-20 to back off. I also used the same group to test zoom climb. This time, each aircraft was flown to 300 mph, level at 100 ft. Once the speed was stable, the throttle was chopped to idle and auto-climb engaged at the same time (for me, that means pushing a button on the throttle when the lever hits the aft stop). I added the Mosquito to the group for this test. The objective is to determine what aircraft gains the most altitude based solely upon its momentum. All of the single engine fighters gained about 1,100 ft before nosing over, except the P-47D-30 which gained a tad more than 1,200 ft. The Mossie gained about 50 feet more than the Jug. However, the A-20 zoomed up past 1,700 ft, for a gain slightly over 1,600 feet! So what does that mean in combat? It means don't maneuver in the vertical with a Co-E A-20 unless you can out-turn it or are well out of gun range. What's the point? The point is, never assume anything. Here's an example of what an inferior plane can do if the pilot understands his aircraft's capabilities. Tonight, a Rook took up an A-20 to defend a field be swarmed by Bish (A167, BigIlses). He managed to kill a Dora, 2 La-7s, P-51D, A6M5, Spit9 and a P-38. That's three of the 5 on the list. He finally lost the A-20 when another La-7 went for an HO.. He shot off the Lavochkin's wing but collided with the wreckage. He hadn't even been pinged before the collision. Every engagement began with the A-20 being lower and a heck of a lot slower than the enemy. Indeed, the A-20 is perfect bait. Now, if it's possible to handle these guys with a bomber, how worried should you be if you're flying a Hellcat?
The question was, "what are the best non-perked planes in the MA?"
Let's consider something besides pure speed, OK?
Jabo: Fw 190D-9 not of much value, limited to one bomb. La-7; useless. Typhoon; carries less ordnance than the F6F, although it has better guns. That's easily overcome by the six HVARS on the F6F. P-51D, exact same load as the F6F, but far less durable in the face of field ack or gunfire. Bf 109G-10, same as Dora.
Fighter: F6F turns circles around the "top five". It has better dive acceleration and zoom climb. It's far more durable than any of the others too. It has the best stall characteristics of the bunch by a significant margin. It's nearly impossible to pull off the wings in a high-speed dive and pullout. The F6F also has terrific high-speed control and handling, two things the G-10, La-7 and Typhoon lack. In exchange, the F6F is slower than all of the "top five", and they also have the edge in level acceleration and sustained climb. Only the Mustang has greater range.
If we include all the criteria of what constitutes a top five aircraft, I can't see how you could possibly exclude the F6F-5, or the P-38 for than matter. Moreover, I can see no reason to include the La-7 , Dora or 109G-10. They are simply "one trick ponies"; go like hell, shoot, go like hell some more. The problem is that some of you guys have a very narrow view of what constitutes the "best non-perked plane."
My regards,
Widewing
