killshooter

[Don]

I intend this post as a complaint about a much discussed aspect of the game: Killshooter:mad:

As you all prolly are aware, the conditions in the MA have been pretty poor this week with warps and dumps practically every day.  With this in mind last night, I figured I would bore in closer to my target, instead of taking longer shots.
Now I am aware of the pro and con arguments of Killshooter, and agree (to a certain extent) that we must have some version of it). But I gotta say what happened to me last night was one of the worst aspects of it.
Me and my squadmates upped and headed to A3 under attack by Bish.  There were a lot of low level fights which quickly turned into more of a furball but only spread out over broader area.
I took a few shots at nme a/c from 500 to 400 feet away, saw a few pings and the nme warped away. This happened again so I decided to change my approach.  The next nme I targeted I made a point of getting in closer. I was flying an FWD9, and was able to get in real close in a hurry. I started registering hits from just inside of 400 feet, just short pulls on the trigger. I stopped firing and waited to get closer to be sure of my shots and kill.
I got in to about 275 feet and chopped throttle so as not to overshoot. At 250 feet I opened up with my cannon, just as I did, the last thing I saw was this a__wipe Rook countryman swoop in from over my right shoulder and fly directly in fron t of me to steal my kill. I had already pulled the trigger I didnt even have enough time to see who the other guy's handle, so's I could ream him over the radio from the tower

So okay, I know the reasoning behind the killshooter function but, in terms of gameplay, do we have a prevention for those who would engage the kind of blatant abuse of fair gameplay I just described ? That was a rhetorical question, there isn't any. Killshooter doesn't protect the participant who observes some sort of etiquette.
In my case, I wasn't spraying from 600 feet out, and made a point of getting in close; there wasn't any room for another attacker in between; that arse intended to dive in front and steal the kill regardless of what it would mean for me.
Yeah, we now have gamers in the game like that, yet we have a rule which didn't (possibly) consider that kind of mentality. Well its here now, and the more it happens, the more it will spread, thereby breaking down the fabric of the country versus system of gameplay, and perhaps ultimately, customer satisfaction.
Solution:
Hell, I don't have one, I don't own the game. But, I have thought of an adjustment to killshooter from the opposite perspective; let the kill stealer be penalized for taking hits; let him/her have to use eyes behind his/her back while saddling up and before taking a shot, instead of the person whop is saddled up after having worked for the position?

[RTR]

Almost the exact thing happened to me the other night.
What used to happen occasionally (rarely) has become common place.
It would be nice to see KS turned off a couple nights a week, unannounced so you never know for sure if its on or off. Just once I would like to see the kill stealing dweebs take a load of .50's in the butt for thier efforts.
RTR

[Don]

RTR:

I hear ya man. Otw home tonight, I was thinking along similar lines but, why not enable limited harm done to a friendly; just enough to disable him so's he/she had to disengage and head home. Would give the person something to think about, and wouldn't punish the one who he/she tried to steal the kill from.
Hehe, what you suggest woulda worked yesterday for me too  I would have loved to have shot his arse down for doing that to me. At any rate, IMO the game is changing as are the players, so why not take another look at some of the practices and policies?

[scJazz]

Don,

Since the Friendly came in from your high right it is possible and perhaps even likely that he never saw you saddled up on the Con. Even if he did see you it is reasonable to assume that he considered your D9 likely to overshoot the Hurri. If the Con was pulling to the right it becomes almost certain that the Friendly never saw you since his belly would have been pointed right at you.

Did you call "Engaged" on the Hurricane over vox? Often when I'm in a multiple fighter fight I will call my engagements when I think there is even a reasonable chance that it is being pursued by more Friendlies.

The ones I hate are the ones who will fire over/under/around you. First since it scares the hell out of me to see bullets wizzing around my plane. My first instinct is to break since I consider myself to be under attack and I've lost a lot of kills because of this. However on the occasions that I know that there are no other NME cons in the area with possible gun solutions I'll slip into the friendlies bullet stream or toward it. It is quite gratifying to see a jerkoff friendly blast themselves out of the sky using this technique.

Last comment... the distances are measured in yards not feet. It is verifiable, known, and without question. A quick test can be performed by flying your aircraft at 8100' AGL over an NME airfield. You'll notice that lower than 8100' AGL NME AAA is firing at you. Above 8100' AGL it is not. 8100' or 2700 yards is the range of the AAA/37mm gun.

[mrblack]

Friendly bullets should have no effect on friendly planes.
Killshooter is retarded.

[Tilt]

A freindly HO's a bogie i was chasing the other night just as i fire ........

I died thru kill shooter..........

The bogie died...........

The HO'ing freindly  lived (this time) and presumably got the kill...........


my bad


I know it's would be unpopular but I would love to see kill shooter off with loss of all perks if done 3 times in 24hours and PNG for the 4th time (or variations on that theme)

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Tilt
A freindly HO's a bogie i was chasing the other night just as i fire ........

I died thru kill shooter..........

The bogie died...........

The HO'ing freindly  lived (this time) and presumably got the kill...........


my bad


I know it's would be unpopular but I would love to see kill shooter off with loss of all perks if done 3 times in 24hours and PNG for the 4th time (or variations on that theme)

Most of my killshooter deaths have come from trying to help some friendly buff driver. Sucks when the enema dood blows up before I let off the trigger .

BTW, in the same situation, yeah...I let of the trigger until the ho weenie passes. With luck, he blows himself up shooting me

[AcId]

We really could use a "less than lethal" solution to killshooter. It should still be severe but not to the point of losing ones aircraft. OIO had suggested blackouts, good start. I'd suggest an actual pilot wound. It would give the pilot (in most situations) the oportunity to RTB. or just zero the bullet counter and make the individual re-arm/re-plane. I know these suggestions don't really protect against what Don experienced but atleast you don't get an instant free trip to the tower.

[Karnak]

Killshooter's greatest advantage is that it is lethal.

A two on one is which a friendly fire incident occurs becomes a one on one.  Take that out and you have completely removed the concept of friendly fire.


As to the idioticly simple minded "Friendly bullets should have no effect on friendly planes" stupidity that gets bandied about, that would have such drasticly negative effects on the balance between the attackers and the defenders that it is impossible to predict how exactly devistatingly bad it would actually be.  That it would be hugely negative to any concept of simulating air combat is blindingly obvious to anybody with a fragment of understanding how air combat works.  You would change the defender's problem from having to evade the gun solutions of the enemy in the lead position into having to evade the guns of all his persurers and at the same time give the persurers the effective advantage of a shot gun, coving much more of the skiy with bullets.  At least with killshooter anybody who wants to try that method risks  pay the price for it, and so most players don't risk it.


Killshooter is not perfect by any means, but it is better than any of the proposed solutions put forth thus far.

[AcId]

Most peoples complaint is that it's lethal to the wrong party. I think thats why some would like a less than lethal aproach. In some of the suggestions it does become a one on one Karnak. The other pilot is essentialy taken out of the fight but without killing him.

I don't expect KS will be changed anytime soon. Then again I don't know sqwat since I don't work at HTC.

Nothing wrong with a little discussion now and then, someday it may actually lead to an elegant solution, who knows.

[Shane]

i'd like both shooter and shootee to take 10x damage.

[Don]

No Jazz I don't think this was the case but, it is possible. I don't think so because I was working this guy, and had to get in close. He came in from above me off my right shoulder, and he came in hot. The situation had all the markings of intent. It should not have been up to me to call my shot; who does that anyway, especially in the heat of a fight?

>>Killshooter is not perfect by any means, but it is better than any of the proposed solutions put forth thus far<<

Karnak:
I agree, KS is not perfect, which is why I brought it up. That it is better than any of the proposed solutions is up for debate. I would argue that it is not better and, at the same time, I don't think that any of the solutions would do much better. Perhaps friendly bullets should hurt friendlies, and perhaps there ought to be a penalty, for the sake of ..ahem.. gameplay.  As I said in my second post, at that moment, I would have loved to have shot that bastige outta the sky for doing what he did. In that instance, it was me who was punished and not him though. I would have willingly taken the hit for shooting him down, and as he floated to earth, I woulda cussed him up and down for being stupid

I am aware of KS and try my damndest to avoid it. I do that, usually by being courteous. There are many others who do not. IMO, the game ought to have some facet that deals with them.
Herein lies the greatest imperfection of Killshooter; it doesn't.

[Ack-Ack]

While not perfect, the PNG system in AW was a lot better than killshooter in AH.  In AW if you were to shoot down 2 friendly aircraft within 24 hours you were unable to take off with any type of ordnance or ammo.  And for every friendly kill above the initial two in the 24 hour period resulted in an additional 24 hours being tacked on to your PNG status.  It did a pretty good job of getting rid of the griefers.



ack-ack

[mold]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
While not perfect, the PNG system in AW was a lot better than killshooter in AH.  In AW if you were to shoot down 2 friendly aircraft within 24 hours you were unable to take off with any type of ordnance or ammo.  And for every friendly kill above the initial two in the 24 hour period resulted in an additional 24 hours being tacked on to your PNG status.  It did a pretty good job of getting rid of the griefers.

This sounds like the best solution to me.  Bullets work they do in RL, i.e. they damage the person in front of you.  The person shooting stays alive, as in RL.  But he is "court martialed".  The longer-term incentives are correct, and the short term realism is also correct.

[mrblack]

Originally posted by Karnak
Killshooter's greatest advantage is that it is lethal.

A two on one is which a friendly fire incident occurs becomes a one on one.  Take that out and you have completely removed the concept of friendly fire.


As to the idioticly simple minded "Friendly bullets should have no effect on friendly planes" stupidity that gets bandied about, that would have such drasticly negative effects on the balance between the attackers and the defenders that it is impossible to predict how exactly devistatingly bad it would actually be.  That it would be hugely negative to any concept of simulating air combat is blindingly obvious to anybody with a fragment of understanding how air combat works.  You would change the defender's problem from having to evade the gun solutions of the enemy in the lead position into having to evade the guns of all his persurers and at the same time give the persurers the effective advantage of a shot gun, coving much more of the skiy with bullets.  At least with killshooter anybody who wants to try that method risks  pay the price for it, and so most players don't risk it.


Killshooter is not perfect by any means, but it is better than any of the proposed solutions put forth thus far.

You mean kinda like they already have it in the bombers and the auto ack:aok

And then the friendly planes should not be able to fly through
each other!
Like I have siad before there are severale things in this game that prevent It from being a SIM.