Bob Johnson Interview: Part 1
A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts of our discussions.
CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.
RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.
CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....
RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.
CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?
RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.
CCJ: Guys of the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?
RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.
CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?
RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.
CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.
RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.
CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?
RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.
CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?
RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.
CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?
RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.
CCJ: How did they react?
RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.
CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?
RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 ft., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.
CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.
RSJ: Yes, very much so.
CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?
RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height.
The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.
CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?
RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.
CCJ: Why?
RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.
CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.
RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.
CCJ: Really?
RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. What ever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.
CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?
RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.
CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?
RSJ: you mean in close?
CCJ: Yes.
RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling.
The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.
CCJ: And, that was?
RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.
CCJ: So, what you are describing sound like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?
RSJ: That's a pretty good description.
CCJ: So what happens next?
RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its,
er...
CCJ: Energy?
RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.
CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?
RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.
CCJ: Why did you roll?
RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.
CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?
RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.
If he turned either left or right, I would be all over him in a few seconds.
CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.
RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.
CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?
RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting you. In that respect, it always worked.
CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?
RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.
CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.
RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.
CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?
RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.
CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.
RSJ: Picture this in you mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.
CCJ: A high yo-yo?
RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.
CCJ: What you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?
RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.
