Author Topic: SSOP 7-12-03  (Read 4341 times)

Offline ramzey

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SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2003, 09:12:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
OK I never saw any of the orders, so have no idea what was actually carved in stone etc.

My points re getting bombers to up from a front line field only 30 miles from enemy, i would assume CM assigned aircraft to specific bases ?

Whoever was responsible for that 1 CM or not in my opinion got it badly wrong.

Axis Cap also suffered as stated earlier they were over target and saw nothing for 1.5 hours.

And "Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)"

This is firmly in the lap of frame CO, again in my opinion they should check previous assignments when assigning orders.

Yea I know opinions coming from somebody who puts nothing back into SOP probably are as welcome as crap on boots.

However for me SOP's and CAP are the most enjoyable parts of AH so i feel entitled to piss on the bonfire from time to time.

And i hope nobody thinks i am having a go at them personally, all CM's and squad CO's deserve all the support they get for what is mostly a thankless task.

In fact my points would apparently have been at home in the Side CO forum.

If all that happens is Frame CO's check in there, then its been worthwhile.


Cavalier you are a victim of being "walkon" ;)

You have right to complain about 2 weeks in bombers, but blame your CO. He should react if he not like fly bombers 2 weeks in a row. But as Viff state, they have fighters 2 weeks ago and as i see this week too. So blame your CO ;-)
but remember you agree to take same duty as whole 101 squadron. If they not complain about planes, you should not too

Im wonder why expirienced CiC not  complain about unescorted bombers. From other way , why the hell you head just to axis cap? to find shortest and closest way to target? strange for me. 90 deg turn ( to west) to run form enemy itsd weird too. Your  fighters was NE of you.

It was route sent by CIC? blame CIC

Fields are too close? yes you right

Axis cap fly 1,5 hour without contact with enemy?. We cannot expect you not have secound strike squadron.

Here is a weeknes of design
2 targets to attack 2 targets to defend. Good, but not for 60 people. Its for 100+ on arena. When somone realise that? ;-)

CiC is forced to set defense cap over both targets, if strike is stopped on first , cap on secound "suffer". Thats was happend many times , last week for 56 firebirds too. We spend a lot of time in air standing on cap over not attacked target( not this TOD of course).
So, blame CM's? ;-)

As i supose all active allies airfields have same planeset open. One restriction was som planes must be used (mostly not less then 4). And thats it. Setup was done good in both frames.


I hope next frame wil be better for you
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 10:22:05 PM by ramzey »

Offline ramzey

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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2003, 09:26:37 PM »
@Ghostdancer, Flossy, Jordi , Jim

Side forum for CO and XO IS a PROGRESS
But whats work good for friday not mean will good work for sunday.
If somone like to use it as source of ideas , its ok
If somone not its ok too (as Ghostdancer wrote)

In this case we have lack of CIC rules and maybe lack of expirience. For me as beginer very helpful was my former squadies (Dinger, Funked). Do we need guideline for CIC? with unwrited ( so far) rules.

Personal i not have interest in being CIC , its only duty i take as SL
(and nowhere is writed as SL i should ;-) , whould i mention im poor CiC? ;) -)

So we are still short of good events webpage (blame cm's? ;-) )

ramzey

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2003, 10:10:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey

But whats work good for friday not mean will good work for sunday.


Yeah, funny how that generally seems to be the case

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Grayarea

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SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2003, 03:28:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
Here is a weeknes of design
2 targets to attack 2 targets to defend. Good, but not for 60 people. Its for 100+ on arena. When somone realise that? ;-)


It seems obvious to have only one target to attack and defend with the level of players we have, but the problem is this;

No one wants a KOTH type furball in the first 15 mins and nothing for the next hour and three quarters. With only one target you virtually guarantee this will happen.

How do we get round this problem? I don’t know, and I cannot think of any better solution at the moment. Ideas please!

We had nearly 70 players on Sunday so maybe things will be better as the numbers grow.

Offline Grayarea

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SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2003, 03:30:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
My points re getting bombers to up from a front line field only 30 miles from enemy, i would assume CM assigned aircraft to specific bases ?


I rarely attach planes to specific bases as this restrict creativity of the frame CO.

Last Sunday no types were attached to any airfield.

Your right, it is a thankless task.

Offline ViFF

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SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2003, 07:22:54 AM »
Quote
Last Sunday no types were attached to any airfield.



Well thats good to know. If it was up to me we would have launched from A19, but the orders i recieved from Markal specificaly noted A4 and a specific route to the target.

Next time if a frame CO asks me to launch buffs from a field only 1 sector away from the bad guys- I will ask him to reconsider :)


Offline skernsk

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SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2003, 07:50:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey


Fields are too close? yes you right

Here is a weeknes of design
2 targets to attack 2 targets to defend. Good, but not for 60 people. Its for 100+ on arena. When somone realise that? ;-)

CiC is forced to set defense cap over both targets, if strike is stopped on first , cap on secound "suffer". Thats was happend many times , last week for 56 firebirds too. We spend a lot of time in air standing on cap over not attacked target( not this TOD of course).
So, blame CM's? ;-)



I feel the need to respond to a few of your comments ramzey It is not intended as a flame or anything but as a member of the team I feel I have the right to reply with a level head.


Were there other fields FARTHER back that the CO could have taken off from?  Or was the CO TOLD by the CM to take bombers from THAT base and fly in THAT direction.  You are a little quick on blaming the CM ... why is that I wonder?


I totally disagree that 2 offensive and 2 defensive objectives are too many.  With numbers around 60 that is 15 PLAYERS per objecitve.  Sounds to me like that is a pretty decent number.  Would you go with more or less and why??

Any less and it seems to me you would have a giant furball erupt.


Finally the 'what works for Friday may not work for Sunday' is just plain WRONG and for that I 'blame you'.  It is a poor attitude to have and is never going to change anything.  

Friday's work with the EXACT same format as Sunday.  Forums are identical and Friday squadrons chose to communicate more than the Sunday event THIS TIME.  It has only been two weeks ... perhaps wait a cycle or two of Squad-Ops before making any drastic changes.  

So far most if not all complaints here could have been avoided with better communication between squad-CO's and Frame CO.  And it is impossible to please all the squads all the time so once in a while squads have to go two or even 3 frames in rides that are not their favorite.

Offline 214thCavalier

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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2003, 08:41:39 AM »
From the replies here you have convinced me

Quote
all complaints here could have been avoided with better communication between squad-CO's and Frame CO


Please consider communicating in the CO forum.

Nuff said.

Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2003, 09:31:23 AM »
why cant i acces the alllied forum?

or is it only for COs ? :(

Offline ramzey

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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2003, 10:39:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
why cant i acces the alllied forum?

or is it only for COs ? :(


you guys not have distributions of orders to you squad members????

my squadies mostly not read orders, but orders are allways posted on on our BB

Offline ramzey

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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2003, 10:50:29 AM »
Skernsk

this week was combination of  bad orders frm CiC, CO who forget to think about what hes doing and small design foult ( not huge, but still .....). First frame has front bbases allmost 3 sectors away from airfield to  enemy field. So.....  noone was complaining.


Quote
Finally the 'what works for Friday may not work for Sunday' is just plain WRONG and for that I 'blame you'. It is a poor attitude to have and is never going to change anything


but its TRUE

Quote
I totally disagree that 2 offensive and 2 defensive objectives are too many. With numbers around 60 that is 15 PLAYERS per objecitve. Sounds to me like that is a pretty decent number. Would you go with more or less and why??


as previous tour. one side attack secound defend
to attack 3 targets (2 from 3 to choice)At last was less complaining about furball then "not see action"

And as i saw axis have  no problems with comunication at all. Ts that up form expirience of CiC?

Offline ViFF

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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2003, 11:00:02 AM »
Flyboy no worries,  I will make sure to copy & paste any orders from the allied forum to our hebrew forum on ILF, and will send a link in email...

but I ain't translating them to hebrew ! :p

Offline lucull

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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2003, 01:15:25 PM »
Okay,

The 2 targets to attack and 2 targets to defend problem:

In theory, the CM wants the CiC to defend both and attack both. If the CiC wants to get 100% of possible points. He has to do that. With 30 people on one side (sum of 60 people), the CiC has to split his forces into 4 groups (7-8 each). Now he has his first problem. He has small (4-6) and big squads (7-10). Secondly, it's a directive to concentrate forces. If he concentrates his forces, he can't defend both with same strenght. The attacker on the other side, doesn't want to send his troops to a target and being outnumbered by defending forces. He concentrates his attacking forces therefor. If you split your forces for attacking/defending 50:50), that means ~15 people. If you have bombers, you need to have at least 4 of them (order by CM) and put the rest into fighters. If the CiC wants to attack both targets at the same time with 2 different forces, it means 4 bomber/jabos and 4 cover each.
Those 8 attackers will met now the defending forces. In theory it would be same strenght, but the cover would be outnumbered already 2:1. If the attackers are lucky, the defending forces have been concentrated and therefor they will meet small or even no defending forces. If it runs bad, the defenders have been concentrated right at the attacked field.
Now, if the defenders don't stay over the field waiting, but CAP the front area to intercept attacks before the field and the attackers use front sweep, they both have to concentrate their forces even more, which brings us to the next problem. If you concentrate again, you end up with 1 attack group and 1 defending group. But if both do that, the defenders again outnumber the attackers, which brings us to the next step of concentrating, the CiC decides to be "aggressive" and puts all of his people into one big attack group, hoping that he will be better in attacking and that field acks might do the defending.
And there comes the other problem. What if both, put their troops into attack? 2 possible ways can happen then. They meet half way in a big furball or they miss each other and probably meet on their way back or never meet. That would mean, that the one who killed more and lost less to field acks wins.

I saw all of the above described happen in sunday SO and I don't liked it.

That's one reason why IMO "Channel Wars" was better for small forces, because only one had to attack and one had to defend. It works great for smaller numbers. For big numbers 200+, you risk the big kludge effect (concentrating forces into one big furball) by CiCs concentrating their forces. So, you divide up forces by assigning targets to attack and defend. And there it works.

And that's the reason why Friday and Sunday are different. They need different designs as long as the numbers very low on one hand and big on the other.

This is my personal analysis of the situation. Not everybody will agree and I don't say I'm the one who is right, but I saw all the stuff I described above happen and I think it was for the reasons I wrote.

I hope I didn't step on anybodies feet. It was not my intention and I hope nobody takes anything written above personally. Remember I'm not native englsih speaker, therefor might things sounds different than I mean them. :)

Offline AndyH

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« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2003, 04:38:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by skernsk

I totally disagree that 2 offensive and 2 defensive objectives are too many.  With numbers around 60 that is 15 PLAYERS per objecitve.  Sounds to me like that is a pretty decent number.  Would you go with more or less and why??
 


History has proven (in SSO) that the CO who concentrates his forces generally wins. There has been a definite trend of COs only attacking one target, and winning the frame.

When you have a CO who tries to follow the rules (as Markal did) he gets beat due to his forces being spread out thinner than his opponent.

Offline skernsk

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SSOP 7-12-03
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2003, 06:27:29 PM »
I am not totally 'qualified' to argue the points as I did not particpate in even one Sunday Squad-Op but I do know that ALL targets should be attacked ... it is a rule.

Frames are designed so the both sides will cross each other's path and the defenders will attack the oncoming planes.  If a squadron is tasked to cap A1 and the CO decided not to attack it then you have 10-15 guys flying around for two hours doing nothing .. .where is the fun in that.

ALL frame CO's must understand that when they get a set of objectives they must attack ALL and must defend ALL.  This may be why the Friday squads are not having as many issues.  They all know this rule and follow it.



NUMBER OF OBJECTIVES

If I understand you correct ramzey you are saying intstead of 4 objectives (2 offensive and 2 defensive) to make it around 3.  In my opinion it is better to have the numbers thinned out by adding another objective.  Being used to a larger number .. we try for around 5 or 6 objectives.  That is roughly 15-20 players per objective per side.  It makes for some intense fighting.

Thanks for the reply ...